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2019 G Street Nationals Dashboard

bfury5

Go Kart Champion
Location
CT
Can confirm that course #2 was much trickier to nail. Course #1 rewarded speed but also bit hard. I think most people on that course were inching closer to the edge and finding speed.
 

aroundomaha

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Nebraska
Civic SI dominated the Nationals. This doesn't make me enjoy my GTI any less, but setting aside driver, can a GTI be competitive in GS at the national level?
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
Civic SI dominated the Nationals. This doesn't make me enjoy my GTI any less, but setting aside driver, can a GTI be competitive in GS at the national level?

Agreed about the Civic SI- I have to compete locally against the driver who finished third in an SI. At least he will help me bring my game back up to a National level, hopefully to at least where I used to be before I took some time off.
What is it going to take, prep-wise, to make the GTI competitive with the Civic SI?
 

bfury5

Go Kart Champion
Location
CT
Agreed about the Civic SI- I have to compete locally against the driver who finished third in an SI. At least he will help me bring my game back up to a National level, hopefully to at least where I used to be before I took some time off.
What is it going to take, prep-wise, to make the GTI competitive with the Civic SI?
For starters, start with the PP GTI. The diff really comes into play. I don't have a diff, and as a result the XDS+ system really overheats the brakes and increases tire temp too. The diff takes some of that away which is keY. A large rear bar and pulling the abs fuse to get real esc off makes a huge difference too.

A coupe SI is about 300lbs lighter than a GTI and comes with 8" rims, so a 255 will fit easy. It also has front crash bolts so there's some negative camber to be gained (nothing like what a camber plate will give, but better than the GTI). Honestly, the SI at a fundamental level has a lot going for it. At a local level, driver skill will make the difference. At a national level, where the skill level is already at the top, the SI is hard to beat
 

Corprin

Autocross Champion
Location
Twin Cities
Car(s)
A car
I left Solo 2 when the first Civic Si was given a trunk kit in order to come close to my POS Neon.

My, times have changed.
 
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theDoktor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
For starters, start with the PP GTI. The diff really comes into play. I don't have a diff, and as a result the XDS+ system really overheats the brakes and increases tire temp too. The diff takes some of that away which is keY. A large rear bar and pulling the abs fuse to get real esc off makes a huge difference too.

A coupe SI is about 300lbs lighter than a GTI and comes with 8" rims, so a 255 will fit easy. It also has front crash bolts so there's some negative camber to be gained (nothing like what a camber plate will give, but better than the GTI). Honestly, the SI at a fundamental level has a lot going for it. At a local level, driver skill will make the difference. At a national level, where the skill level is already at the top, the SI is hard to beat

You are right on the money about the Civic- before I bought the GTI, I test drove the SI and knew immediately that it was going to be the car to beat in G Street. My car is a Sport- the diff & big brakes are standard. I've done everything you listed except pulling the ABS fuse- I don't believe that's legal, although a blown fuse??? Will be putting on Koni Sports (still on original struts/shocks) & tweaking the alignment a bit come spring. The rear is about balanced where I like it with an 034 25.4mm RSB in the soft position. Rear tires are 215/45-17; fronts 245/40-17 on Enkei Fusion wheels. Had a ringer (ex pro rally & Can-Am) driver drive my car at the last event of the year this past fall when I was recovering from wrist surgery. (He's also a top level autocrosser.) Even he couldn't quite catch Dave in his new SI, although he got within a half second or so. He really liked the balance & performance of the GTI. Next time I see Dave, I'm asking him if we can swap & compare cars at the next test & tune. Now that would be insightful.
 

bfury5

Go Kart Champion
Location
CT
You are right on the money about the Civic- before I bought the GTI, I test drove the SI and knew immediately that it was going to be the car to beat in G Street. My car is a Sport- the diff & big brakes are standard. I've done everything you listed except pulling the ABS fuse- I don't believe that's legal, although a blown fuse??? Will be putting on Koni Sports (still on original struts/shocks) & tweaking the alignment a bit come spring. The rear is about balanced where I like it with an 034 25.4mm RSB in the soft position. Rear tires are 215/45-17; fronts 245/40-17 on Enkei Fusion wheels. Had a ringer (ex pro rally & Can-Am) driver drive my car at the last event of the year this past fall when I was recovering from wrist surgery. (He's also a top level autocrosser.) Even he couldn't quite catch Dave in his new SI, although he got within a half second or so. He really liked the balance & performance of the GTI. Next time I see Dave, I'm asking him if we can swap & compare cars at the next test & tune. Now that would be insightful.
Dave is quick, and beat me at nats. I've seen him at a few local courses and things were a little closer. There are a few locals who have the SI and are pretty good drivers, but I can hang with them. But the SI in truly capable hands will easily win. I've always wanted to do a back to back with my own car and then someone else's SI.

Also, per 13.9 section G:

"G. On cars without the ability to turn off electronic stability control and/or traction control (ESC/TC) from the manufacturer, modifications to defeat the ESC/TC are permitted. These modification are limited to altering the inputs to the ESC/TC processor (e.g., removing fuses, unplugging yaw or steering angle sensors, altering signals) and may serve no other purpose. Any codes or error lights resulting from ESC/TC modifications are permitted."

Because our TC can't be legally defeated (VCDS mod for full ECS off isn't legal), you can legally pull the ABS fuse.
 

RacingManiac

Go Kart Champion
Location
MI
My 2 cents, I think GTI is still competitive, I don't know why last year's result was the way it was, but a FoST finished 5th. A car that hasn't changed(in area that matters) since 2013 and one that GTI is very much competitive against. No reason why you can't still do it with a GTI. My old car was in the field, and I still give its current owner shit for not doing better. It has limitations but we've gotten close a few times....

Practically though if you were to buy a new GS cars, no reason to not get a Civic. It's meaningfully cheaper and no need to pick the right spec car, especially since the best spec GTI is no longer available.

Weight wise Civic is not lighter by 300lb. My car weighed in 2960, the Civic coupe in the right prep I think is in the mid 2800s. They are lighter, but they are also not as well geared(for larger Nationals type courses), and they are noticeably less powerful(I drove one last year also at a Pro). Light weight and wide tires helps, but I don't think the difference is as night and day as you think. Cheaper price of entry and lack of headache getting the right one makes it a lot more attractive and lemming effect does the rest with the good results.
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
Thanks, guys. You've given me the incentive to believe the car is still competitive and that I need to get my act together and go for it in the GTI. I'm going to be the weakest link in the chain for a bit, but I believe it's doable.
 

glitronic

Ready to race!
Location
WA
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport DSG
You are right on the money about the Civic- before I bought the GTI, I test drove the SI and knew immediately that it was going to be the car to beat in G Street. My car is a Sport- the diff & big brakes are standard. I've done everything you listed except pulling the ABS fuse- I don't believe that's legal, although a blown fuse??? Will be putting on Koni Sports (still on original struts/shocks) & tweaking the alignment a bit come spring. The rear is about balanced where I like it with an 034 25.4mm RSB in the soft position. Rear tires are 215/45-17; fronts 245/40-17 on Enkei Fusion wheels. Had a ringer (ex pro rally & Can-Am) driver drive my car at the last event of the year this past fall when I was recovering from wrist surgery. (He's also a top level autocrosser.) Even he couldn't quite catch Dave in his new SI, although he got within a half second or so. He really liked the balance & performance of the GTI. Next time I see Dave, I'm asking him if we can swap & compare cars at the next test & tune. Now that would be insightful.
Here are some thoughts from 3 years of owning a 2017 Sport DSG and campaigning it in GS on and off again:

I did a full season on stock struts, a hollow 25.4mm Megan Racing rear swaybar, and Nexens. Took top pax at a local event for the first time ever and had quite a few 990+ results.

Next season I switched to Konis and the Neuspeed Race 27mm hollow rear bar. I eventually settled on running the Konis at full stiff in front and the rears are set at 2/3 stiff (since they can't easily be adjusted on the car without hacks I leave them that way). I felt the car was much faster, tighter, and neutral with this setup, but I was not able to replicate my success of the previous season for some reason, even after switching from the then-old Nexens to new RE71Rs. That season was when a few drivers locally switched to Civic Si's as well, and I was consistently unable to keep up with at least the best of them. I ran against an identical GTI at a local National Tour event and came up a little behind, so maybe I wasn't at the top of my personal best game, either. I've always ran the stock alignment.

I think with the optimal GTI you'd still have a chance, but it will definitely not be easy. Mine is 3100lbs in race trim, and I know the DSG is sometimes a hindrance for not being in the right gear (but it also helps sometimes when you can blast straight through gears 1-2-3 on fast sections).
If I were shopping for a GS car, didn't insist on hatchback and DSG practicality, and could get over the ridiculous fake vents and hideousness of them, I'd get a Civic Si.
 

RacingManiac

Go Kart Champion
Location
MI
On the ESC stuff, we never ran it with all the way off, and yea sometimes it does kick in and kills a run, but I find it in most cases when that happens that doesn't really play to where the car was strong. You really need to make the diff do all the work, and that means get the car settled and turned in, and get on the gas as early as possible and stay on it. Going from GTI to Type R is quite different because Type R likes to be driven when you feel like you are going to lose it. GTI hates that. SI btw also hates that. I find the SI to be much more like a GTI than a Type R....The setup on my old car is in many threads here, but only special sauce is the ProParts Konis and I am not even sure they are necessarily the key but I do like having the extra fine tuning available. Ran the biggest bar I found when I got the car and that was the H&R 26mm but I think you won't be losing out on a whole lot with the 034. We never ran reverse stagger setup on the GTI and knowing the car it probably won't like it especially with the ESC since the whole point of ESC was to qualm rear slip and narrow rear will likely make it more prone to happen. Plus harder to rotate tires. But I've ran against very fast GTI with the same 245/215 stagger, but he also runs a much softer rear bar. So might end up a wash. On the Type R we ran a 275/245 stagger for half a season and we went to 265 square. It just makes the car way too nervous...
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
On the ESC stuff, we never ran it with all the way off, and yea sometimes it does kick in and kills a run, but I find it in most cases when that happens that doesn't really play to where the car was strong. You really need to make the diff do all the work, and that means get the car settled and turned in, and get on the gas as early as possible and stay on it. Going from GTI to Type R is quite different because Type R likes to be driven when you feel like you are going to lose it. GTI hates that. SI btw also hates that. I find the SI to be much more like a GTI than a Type R....The setup on my old car is in many threads here, but only special sauce is the ProParts Konis and I am not even sure they are necessarily the key but I do like having the extra fine tuning available. Ran the biggest bar I found when I got the car and that was the H&R 26mm but I think you won't be losing out on a whole lot with the 034. We never ran reverse stagger setup on the GTI and knowing the car it probably won't like it especially with the ESC since the whole point of ESC was to qualm rear slip and narrow rear will likely make it more prone to happen. Plus harder to rotate tires. But I've ran against very fast GTI with the same 245/215 stagger, but he also runs a much softer rear bar. So might end up a wash. On the Type R we ran a 275/245 stagger for half a season and we went to 265 square. It just makes the car way too nervous...

I've found the car to work best for me with ESC partially turned off both before and after the switch to the 245/215 stagger. Can't hurt to pull the fuse & see what happens tho. I may just pick up a Strano rear bar and see how that works with the 245/215 tire combo- thanks for the tip! Hopefully the switch to a smaller bar won't cause too many headaches when I get to run on concrete again- everything around here is asphalt. Guess I need to give ProParts a call to see what they'll charge me to do the rear shocks.
BTW, George sold his GTI & is now running a Veloster N- he's faster than ever.
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
@RacingManiac If you still have the records, would you mind posting (or PM me) the alignment specs you were using when you did so well at Nationals? I'm kind of curious how they match up with other alignment specs I've seen tossed around. I know my driving style differs from others and I have to adjust for that, including the alignment I end up with. Getting the car settled early and getting on the gas earlier will be something I plan on focusing on this year. I will be running against Dave P. in his top 3 Nationals Civic SI locally, and we will be both competing against each other and working together. (He's a friend; his dad & I have been friends & fellow autocrossers since well before we did our first Nationals together at Hutchinson.) Should be a fun season.
It looks like Strano no longer makes the 22 RSB that George was using, so I'm going to have to look elsewhere for a comparable bar unless someone wants to sell me one of Strano's 22mm RSB's.
 

RacingManiac

Go Kart Champion
Location
MI
Nothing special on the alignment, I'll just list the setup in whole here:
Proparts DA front struts
Maxed out front Camber(just from the assembly tolerance), ~0.8 deg
Strut set to max out front compression, no min reb(for dry, in the wet we add more front reb)
0 Front toe
Proparts single external(reb) adjustable rear shocks
Rear shock normally set to max rear reb for dry concrete, for asphalt/lower grip/wet it can be anywhere from 1/2 to 1/4 of the full range away from full soft
0 Rear toe
1-1.5 deg rear camber(this is less sure on my part, I added rear camber through out its life and I wasn't sure where I ended up).
H&R 26mm RSB(stock endlinks)
Enkei Fujin 17x7.5 Wheels(I ran I think 3 or 4mm spacers on the front to max out the 7mm offset allowance, not that I think it matters a whole lot.
We ran both RE71R and BFGs, we settled on BFGs. 35PSI square most of the time, set right before we take a run, lower rear if the car is loose as a faster setup adjustment than rear shock changes(FYI on REs we run 32psi nominal)

Stock brake pads, ATE Type 200 fluid
 
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