2017 GTi PP at VIR

[replicate]

No, that information is not available from the OBDII port, and the CAN bus driver that works with the Mk7 Golf is actually for the SEAT Leon and does not provide steering angle or brake pressure (it has a BP channel but it comes back with zeroes). My AiM unit is wired into the CAN bus and the only useful addition I get versus the OBDII connection is a brake on/off toggle. I combine that with longitudinal acceleration in a math channel to produce a calculated brake pressure.



The time/distance plot is where I spend the most time. Roger Caddell likes to use a calculated value called gsum, and I find it useful too. It's the square root of (lat acceleration^2 + long acceleration^2) and represents how hard you're pushing the car. There is a video discussing it's use (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPnYF8aGwF8) and I am not going to attempt to repeat that information in a forum post.

I typically overlay a couple of laps and look for segments where I gained or lost time, then drill into those to try to understand why. I may need to refer back to video I've taken to help me understand why one lap was different than the other. For me this analysis is done after the event since if I am instructing, I just don't have much time to spend on me type stuff.

I’d really like to get an AIM. I use Harry’s at the moment but it’s so unreliable. Moons need to align for everything to work correctly. Downside to AIM is if you want video as well it’s quite a lot of money to invest. Wish they would just support a GoPro.

 

[Cliff]

What AiM brings to the table is the analysis software. If all you're after is track day video to amaze and amuse your friends, then are cheaper and easier options.

edit: I use an AiM SoloDL along with a GoPro Hero 5 Black facing to the front, and a GoPro Hero 4 Silver facing to the rear. If I am going to create video, then I use RaceRender to merge the sources and render the video. GPS and speed come from the Hero 5, all the other data comes from the AiM.

 

[M3bs1]

I use an AIM Solo with an ancient Gopro Hero 2, using RaceRender to produce the video. Works well, but it does take some time. Won’t work if you are looking for video with data trackside.

 

[Cliff]

I think if you're looking for video with data trackside, then you likely either need a support team, or a higher end product like those from Vbox or Racelogic.

 

[victorofhavoc]

I’d really like to get an AIM. I use Harry’s at the moment but it’s so unreliable. Moons need to align for everything to work correctly. Downside to AIM is if you want video as well it’s quite a lot of money to invest. Wish they would just support a GoPro.

I've found Harry's to be fairly reliable, but it takes a quality device and reliable network data. My phone absolutely has to be in "performance mode", auto-rotate has to be on, harry's has to have permission to use high precision location to include GPS and cell tower (preferably an actual GPS device like a Garmin), and the data feeding in via obd2 has to come from a reliable device. The first lap is almost always janky, but the rest work perfectly fine.

AiM is pretty fantastic, but the other guys are right... Next step up is really a proper vbox, racelogic, or race pak. If you want in car, on track estimates of where you are up to your mechanical grip limit apex pro can be your friend for 450$.

Anything is possible, it just depends on how serious you want to get and where you want to invest your money...

 

[R Golf]

I've found Harry's to be fairly reliable, but it takes a quality device and reliable network data. My phone absolutely has to be in "performance mode", auto-rotate has to be on, harry's has to have permission to use high precision location to include GPS and cell tower (preferably an actual GPS device like a Garmin), and the data feeding in via obd2 has to come from a reliable device. The first lap is almost always janky, but the rest work perfectly fine.

AiM is pretty fantastic, but the other guys are right... Next step up is really a proper vbox, racelogic, or race pak. If you want in car, on track estimates of where you are up to your mechanical grip limit apex pro can be your friend for 450$.

Anything is possible, it just depends on how serious you want to get and where you want to invest your money...

I've also found Harry's very reliable over many track days. Only one day where it was off (at the Glen). Having a separate GPS is very helpful and makes speeds significantly more accurate.

You can do quite a bit of self analysis with Harry's alone. Brake points are quite evident from the video and your own knowledge, the line is crystal clear, on throttle is also clear enough in most cases simply from audio and speed, and g forces are OK if not perfect, but still another helpful indicator. I find the best analysis is doing side by side videos of my best times vs. other laps and my best sector times vs. other laps.

Importantly, you need to be honest with yourself on how much analysis time you are going to put in. I know a few people who have much more expensive analysis tools than Harry's and after a few events used it less and less.

Of course you can always dig deeper, but as said above it's how much you want to invest. It's a good simple inexpensive beginning to data acquisition.

 

[Mini7]

No, that information is not available from the OBDII port, and the CAN bus driver that works with the Mk7 Golf is actually for the SEAT Leon and does not provide steering angle or brake pressure (it has a BP channel but it comes back with zeroes). My AiM unit is wired into the CAN bus and the only useful addition I get versus the OBDII connection is a brake on/off toggle. I combine that with longitudinal acceleration in a math channel to produce a calculated brake pressure.

The time/distance plot is where I spend the most time. Roger Caddell likes to use a calculated value called gsum, and I find it useful too. It's the square root of (lat acceleration^2 + long acceleration^2) and represents how hard you're pushing the car. There is a video discussing it's use (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPnYF8aGwF8) and I am not going to attempt to repeat that information in a forum post.

I typically overlay a couple of laps and look for segments where I gained or lost time, then drill into those to try to understand why. I may need to refer back to video I've taken to help me understand why one lap was different than the other. For me this analysis is done after the event since if I am instructing, I just don't have much time to spend on me type stuff.

HLT has been helpful. Not 100% accurate but for the most part is directionally correct. Sector times helps identify quickly where you are up or down in terms of LapTime. I’m a visual learner so the data overlay helps understand where I am carrying corner speed and where I’m not. One of my frustrations is getting the data and video to synchronize correctly. It always seems to be a second or two off. I have to listen for brake application to see my brake markers. Whenever I manually adjust the synchronization it messes up the whole session. I’ll fess up to operator error. I use the friction circle to gauge my transitions from braking to turning.

HLT cannot compare time/distance traces.

This is where I need AIM. To do multi-lap comparisons.

Compare brake points, % throttle, line traces on track. Apex points, track out points.

One of the things I’m really curious about is braking technique. I suspect that I may be carrying more brake pressure than I need with the new BBK and over slowing slightly. Practice and technique, but some data here will help the learning curve. Do I really need to backup my brake zone or do I just need higher initial pedal pressure.
Steering angle/throttle application is another two data points I’m looking for coming out of Oak Tree/Turn-12 (corner before the longest straight)
Line trace would help here.

It sucks that AIM is not pulling brake and steering angle data streams. VWs ECU is recording these parameters for stability control.

 

[victorofhavoc]

Mini, are you a NASA member? If so, maybe contact racepak and see if they can give the data points you're looking for. They're a bit more expensive than AiM, but not quite racelogic expensive. NASA members get discounts as well.

I do wish there was more support for the vw platform, but I guess if you want support buy a mustang, right?

 

[Cliff]

This is where I need AIM. To do multi-lap comparisons.

Like I said, AiM is all about their Race Studio Analysis software. That is where the power of the product lies.

Fwiw, AiM would have been happy to create a driver for me with brake pressure and steering angle and any other channels I wanted. But I had to provide the CAN bus channel identifiers, domain of values transmitted through the channel, and that kind of stuff. I reached out to a couple of local people who had the ability to discover that information or put me in contact with people who could directly help me, and nothing happened of it. The current Solo2/Solo2DL products lets users build their own drivers, but again, you need to know the CAN bus internals.

 

[Cliff]

Having a separate GPS is very helpful and makes speeds significantly more accurate.

I'd call an external 10Hz+ GPS necessary rather than helpful. The 1Hz GPS built into a smartphone is fine for walking or a slow bicycle ride, but a car goes far in 1 second at track speeds.

 

[Mini7]

Cliff thank you for the input and feedback.

The GPS refresh definitely requires a higher refresh rate. Especially for use on track.
125mph equates to 60yrds/sec. Miss a brake point by 1 second and you will run out of real estate. Most brake markers are in 50yrd increments.
If you are on the limit, 1 car length is recoverable. 2-car lengths will likely result in an off. I had a car distract me coming out of the pit lane and I missed my brake point coming down the front straight. I had a slow 4-wheel off from that lapse in concentration.

 

[Mini7]

Mini, are you a NASA member? If so, maybe contact racepak and see if they can give the data points you're looking for. They're a bit more expensive than AiM, but not quite racelogic expensive. NASA members get discounts as well.

I do wish there was more support for the vw platform, but I guess if you want support buy a mustang, right?

Nope. Just run HPDE. No competitive events. I’m competitive by nature enough as it is without having to run in competition. More so in challenging myself as a driver. I enjoy the engineering challenge of developing and improving the cars performance. The driver in this equations is the largest variable, then the tires.

I definitely have more to learn, driving VIR. Data will help that learning process until I have cracked the puzzle. Using data and video at any new track I go to will shorten the learning curve. Road Atlanta,Barber and the Glen are on my list.

I will likely drop a run group and get an instructor to learn a new course. This is where AIM race studio will definitely help shorten the learning curve outside of seat time.

 

[sean.mason.75873]

Nope. Just run HPDE. No competitive events. I’m competitive by nature enough as it is without having to run in competition. More so in challenging myself as a driver. I enjoy the engineering challenge of developing and improving the cars performance. The driver in this equations is the largest variable, then the tires.

I definitely have more to learn, driving VIR. Data will help that learning process until I have cracked the puzzle. Using data and video at any new track I go to will shorten the learning curve. Road Atlanta,Barber and the Glen are on my list.

I will likely drop a run group and get an instructor to learn a new course. This is where AIM race studio will definitely help shorten the learning curve outside of seat time.

Have you thought about using sim racing to practice?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[Mini7]

Have you thought about using sim racing to practice?

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Not really considered it. I think it works for learning the line. Without having used it, I cannot really comment. But there are still the tactile aspects to driving. Grip levels, bumps in the brake zones. What your butt is telling you the car is doing. The feedback from your steering wheel. I’ve used YouTube to get a feel for the flow of a track. The line. Heck F1 driver use it.

 

[victorofhavoc]

Not really considered it. I think it works for learning the line. Without having used it, I cannot really comment. But there are still the tactile aspects to driving. Grip levels, bumps in the brake zones. What your butt is telling you the car is doing. The feedback from your steering wheel. I’ve used YouTube to get a feel for the flow of a track. The line. Heck F1 driver use it.

Iracing is honestly something else entirely. I log a solid 120 hrs per winter in it. It seems, just like me, you like to learn from your own observations and experiences, and in that aspect I was hesitant about sims until I tried them. It's an investment for sure, but if you have 1000$ to spend on cameras, AiM, and other stuff, I'd throw that money into a halfway decent gaming computer and a decent thrustmaster wheel/pedal. Beyond learning the line, you learn the feedback, timing, reaction rate, brake points, acceleration points, gear selection, and even auditory queues. If nothing else, it keeps those senses sharp during the off season. You also get tons of feedback out of a decent wheel, and can feel irregularities in the track. I have spent numerous hours on the lime rock park course trying to sort out how to best enter the hairpin. That corner is tricky enough to count for an entire second. Having the ability to do it again and again and again back to back is absolutely invaluable.