'15 GTI 80k, stock, babied since new - engine locked up :(

[GIACUser]

VW came back with 40% and I'd need to pay 60%...of $18,000 estimated by the dealer. Something but obviously that ain't happening.

I replied. We'll see what happens.

"Thanks for following up with me.

Me paying 60% of the quoted $18,000 to repair my car is still unaffordable to me and also wouldn't make financial sense.

Seeing as the car is original owner, perfectly maintained, and not modified, I was hoping that Volkswagen would have come forth with a stronger display of goodwill.

I had a paid off asset that was worth at least $13,000 as a trade in, and more than that private party which now is not functional due to a total engine failure that is clearly due to some latent defect. Not to mention the peril we encountered as the car died on a highway.

In order for me to entertain a repair at Northampton Volkswagen, my out of pocket costs would need to be kept at $3000 to $4000 tops. If that can be worked out, with either a greater goodwill by Volkswagen and/or an adjustment of the estimate by the dealer,please let me know by COB today 12/30. If we cannot reach an acceptable solution, I will begin arrangements to have the car towed home to me."

We'll see what they say.

Well knocking 7200 off is lot of goodwill for a company that could get away without taking on any of it. It means for 10K you get an entirely new factory motor and turbo. Which is much like getting a new car. If it were me, I would try and negotiate 50/50 and argue about the LPFP issue just to try and get a little more. Asking them to go from 60/40 to 22/78(you pay 4K) or 17/83 (you pay 3K) is just to big of an ask.

So for 10K you get essentially a new car, done right. You can't buy anything close in the way of another used car without spending twice that or more. If you drag it home and put a low mileage motor in it you will be into it for at least 6K.

I think you should think about the deal and not be so quick to close the door on the deal. If your car is paid off, you can go back to the bank and refinance to pay for it. I think their 60/40 offer takes a horrible situation for you and turns it into a pretty good deal.

 

[messrock]

Well knocking 7200 off is lot of goodwill for a company that could get away without taking on any of it. It means for 10K you get an entirely new factory motor and turbo. Which is much like getting a new car. If it were me, I would try and negotiate 50/50 and argue about the LPFP issue just to try and get a little more. Asking them to go from 60/40 to 22/78(you pay 4K) or 17/83 (you pay 3K) is just to big of an ask.

So for 10K you get essentially a new car, done right. You can't buy anything close in the way of another used car without spending twice that or more. If you drag it home and put a low mileage motor in it you will be into it for at least 6K.

I think you should think about the deal and not be so quick to close the door on the deal. If you car is paid off, you can go back to the bank and refinance to pay for it. I think their 60/40 offer takes a horrible situation for you and turns it into a pretty good deal.

This right here. You’re looking at 20k+ to replace the car or 10k to get essentially another 100k out of this one on a 0-mile crate engine. Yeah, plenty of salvage engines out there for less, but you have no idea what those have been through.

 

[SAABTurboGuy]

Thanks for the input guys.

One thing I just realized. A good # of the engine parts fall under the PZEV warranty (in effect in both NY and Massachusetts). I know the turbocharger definitely does. I don't think their estimate takes that into account.

So I replied back giving them a little more time and I asked them for an itemized estimate (instead of a 1 line new engine and turbo 18k they had given me) and then deduct all PZEV parts and labor. That plus maybe a tad more goodwill may get things closer to my target out of pocket.

Ask and ye may receive.

 

[roundle1979]

This all sounds very frustrating.

If you decided to replace the engine (long block) at the VW dealer, what kind of warranty would the new/replaced engine have? If it's not 4YR / 50K, I'm not sure I'd consider putting my own money towards it.

Also, have you considered buying a used EA888? Complete engines w/ ~50K miles go for under $5K. If I were in your shoes, I'd consider replacing the engine with a used one (via an independent shop) and then selling via private party.

 

[SAABTurboGuy]

This all sounds very frustrating.

If you decided to replace the engine (long block) at the VW dealer, what kind of warranty would the new/replaced engine have? If it's not 4YR / 50K, I'm not sure I'd consider putting my own money towards it.

Also, have you considered buying a used EA888? Complete engines w/ ~50K miles go for under $5K. If I were in your shoes, I'd consider replacing the engine with a used one (via an independent shop) and then selling via private party.

It is frustrating. While I appreciate the offer of 40%, that's still 10k out of my pocket to put a new engine in my 8 year old car...pretty much obliterates any equity I had in the car. I get the good points folks made that it may get me another 100k out of it. But also, how many headaches? These dealer mechanics are bound to make some mistakes on a job that big.

If I'm gonna trade it in after the repair, it may be best to get an engine in there as cheaply as possible. If I can get a new VW engine in there for 3 to 4k out of my pocket max, then maybe I do it. So I'm still trying to get more out of VW/the dealer. I imagine the dealer would want the job that big, regardless of if the money comes from me , VW, or the PZEV warranty. Otherwise I'd go used engine and then dump the car.

Waiting now to hear about PZEV warranty. Service manager said those parts wouldn't be covered since they're replacing the entire engine and it'd be different if those parts specifically failed.

I responded that they actually did not determine an official cause of death in their diagnosis. There was a code for low fuel pressure from the low pressure fuel pump. Very plausible that it leaned out to the point cylinder 1 blew. It would make sense that cylinder 1 would be the one to go if this happened. I also said the turbo could have went kaput and sent shrapnel into the motor. In either case those are 15 year/150k PZEV parts. AND, I asked what if a PZEV part fails and takes the whole engine out as collateral damage? Is that covered too? All of these emails have a VW rep Cc'ed as well. I sent an email to the California ARB, I believe the authors of the PZEV legislation, for guidance.

I'm going to be tenacious on this. Corporations and dealers are when it comes to $$. My household is run like a business as well, have to look out for my hard earned $$.

 

[GIACUser]

It is frustrating. While I appreciate the offer of 40%, that's still 10k out of my pocket to put a new engine in my 8 year old car...pretty much obliterates any equity I had in the car. I get the good points folks made that it may get me another 100k out of it. But also, how many headaches? These dealer mechanics are bound to make some mistakes on a job that big.

If I'm gonna trade it in after the repair, it may be best to get an engine in there as cheaply as possible. If I can get a new VW engine in there for 3 to 4k out of my pocket max, then maybe I do it. So I'm still trying to get more out of VW/the dealer. I imagine the dealer would want the job that big, regardless of if the money comes from me , VW, or the PZEV warranty. Otherwise I'd go used engine and then dump the car.

Waiting now to hear about PZEV warranty. Service manager said those parts wouldn't be covered since they're replacing the entire engine and it'd be different if those parts specifically failed.

I responded that they actually did not determine an official cause of death in their diagnosis. There was a code for low fuel pressure from the low pressure fuel pump. Very plausible that it leaned out to the point cylinder 1 blew. It would make sense that cylinder 1 would be the one to go if this happened. I also said the turbo could have went kaput and sent shrapnel into the motor. In either case those are 15 year/150k PZEV parts. AND, I asked what if a PZEV part fails and takes the whole engine out as collateral damage? Is that covered too? All of these emails have a VW rep Cc'ed as well. I sent an email to the California ARB, I believe the authors of the PZEV legislation, for guidance.

I'm going to be tenacious on this. Corporations and dealers are when it comes to $$. My household is run like a business as well, have to look out for my hard earned $$.

I think that your perseverance has a chance of netting you some bit of additional assistance if you are persistent, aggressive but courteous.

Keep in mind VW ‘s offer to help is not going cover any expenses if you go used motor. Also a used motor even with a warranty carries risk. If something goes wrong with it you are on the hook for r&r of the motor.

I know your looking for a way to avoid the cost of this but you are not going to get a used motor and used turbo installed for 4K. We all wish it was that cheap. I think there is a difference of about 3500-4000 dollar difference for your out of pocket cost between used vs factory lonblock w/VW help.

Good luck, do your homework and locate a used motor and a turbo, shipping, tax and all labor along with anything you want done to motor like timing chain etc. That way you will have a clear picture rather than a hope or guess. Important to have this info before you close the door on the VW offer.

Good luck, I hope some good fortune comes your way.

 

[SAABTurboGuy]

I think that your perseverance has a chance of netting you some bit of additional assistance if you are persistent, aggressive but courteous.

Keep in mind VW ‘s offer to help is not going cover any expenses if you go used motor. Also a used motor even with a warranty carries risk. If something goes wrong with it you are on the hook for r&r of the motor.

I know your looking for a way to avoid the cost of this but you are not going to get a used motor and used turbo installed for 4K. We all wish it was that cheap. I think there is a difference of about 3500-4000 dollar difference for your out of pocket cost between used vs factory lonblock w/VW help.

Good luck, do your homework and locate a used motor and a turbo, shipping, tax and all labor along with anything you want done to motor like timing chain etc. That way you will have a clear picture rather than a hope or guess. Important to have this info before you close the door on the VW offer.

Good luck, I hope some good fortune comes your way.

That's how I would describe it - firm, aggressive, but polite and articulate in my written responses to the dealer/VW.

Im driving a jalopy that's barely road worthy right now to work, but I take the back roads. I can wait this out.

If I went used motor, it would only be because I would immediately trade the car in. If I can do a used motor for 6k out the door...and still trade the car for 12k or so, then I'm lost 6k in the ordeal. If I do the VW engine out of pocket, I'd have to keep there car for a while, otherwise I've lost all equity in the car.

I'm willing to let this play out a bit more.

I frankly have no idea if my mint car has been dinged, scratched, or has had bird crap etching the paint for the last month it's been sitting at this dealer our of my view. It may be damaged goods esthetically by now too

 

[avenali312]

I get the good points folks made that it may get me another 100k out of it. But also, how many headaches? These dealer mechanics are bound to make some mistakes on a job that big.

Sorry for the frustration on this.

The comment regarding the dealer mechanics isn't necessarily true. My MKV GTI started rattling like crazy at 49k miles, so I took it to the dealer. Something about machining in cylinder 3 and that they were going to replace my long block under warranty. The dealer did a great job on it and the car lasted me another 80k with minimal issues (and this was on the turd of an FSI that had many, many problems leading up to the long block replacement).

TL;DR - I ended up with a much more solid car post-long-block replacement. The big difference being it was completely under warranty, so there was no arguing.

 

[SAABTurboGuy]

Sorry for the frustration on this.

The comment regarding the dealer mechanics isn't necessarily true. My MKV GTI started rattling like crazy at 49k miles, so I took it to the dealer. Something about machining in cylinder 3 and that they were going to replace my long block under warranty. The dealer did a great job on it and the car lasted me another 80k with minimal issues (and this was on the turd of an FSI that had many, many problems leading up to the long block replacement).

TL;DR - I ended up with a much more solid car post-long-block replacement. The big difference being it was completely under warranty, so there was no arguing.

Actually that's a good point. I've had some poor experiences with the local dealer.

But up where my car is, the foreman seems like a great guy who knows his stuff.. definitely seems smart, diligent and conscientious.

Dunno if I can do 10k out of pocket for a new motor though. May need to consider selling the car with no engine (or with a used engine, need to do the math on that).

Basically the options are:
Fix with new engine with VW assistance (hopefully more assistance than their current offer).

Put used motor in and trade car in.

Sell car with bad motor...either to an enthusiast, or maybe see if that dealer is interested in it.

 

[avenali312]

Actually that's a good point. I've had some poor experiences with the local dealer.

But up where my car is, the foreman seems like a great guy who knows his stuff.. definitely seems smart, diligent and conscientious.

Dunno if I can do 10k out of pocket for a new motor though. May need to consider selling the car with no engine (or with a used engine, need to do the math on that).

Basically the options are:
Fix with new engine with VW assistance (hopefully more assistance than their current offer).

Put used motor in and trade car in.

Sell car with bad motor...either to an enthusiast, or maybe see if that dealer is interested in it.

Yeah, it's definitely a tight spot to be in. I would probably lean towards finding a used engine, have an indie shop install it, drive it for a bit, and reassess to see how I felt about the whole thing.

 

[SAABTurboGuy]

For anyone who is still following along

As Diggs had mentioned earlier in the thread, I long suspected that the fuel pump spazzed out, the car ran lean, and cylinder 1 self destructed. If the did occur, the foreman confirmed that I would be covered under the PZEV warranty as the fuel pump is a PZEV part.

However the foreman does not think that is what happened.

The car threw a code for low pressure from the low pressure fuel pump.

Foreman said it could be an old code that didn't trip a light, also the car would go into limp mode with EPC light on to protect itself.

I said the car did go into limp mode with check engine and EPC lights on and I limped along for a very short time before the engine died. He said the software would protect the engine. I said the software was clearly trying to protect the engine, and it eventually failed to do so. I work in the field, I know software is not perfect. I asked them to check the logs and see the timing of when that fuel pump code was thrown. Was it an old code it did it happen right before the engine failure?

The foreman said he suspects a mechanical failure, like a connecting rod. If the cylinder blew up and damaged the fuel injector, that would cause low fuel in the cylinder and a code. So my counter there was well where is the fuel pressure measurement taken? It surely can't be at the injector because then how would the system know to flag the low pressure fuel pump or the high pressure fuel pump as the cause? If the measurement is taken downstream of 2 possible causes then the cause is ambiguous.

So basically I need to know a)the timing of when that fuel pump fault was logged abd b) where is this measurement taken from?

Right now they are denying PZEV coverage based on a hypothesis.

I live for debugging/details/analysis like this...even when I don't have $10,000 at stake.

I have all of these sentiments of mine captured in emails with the VW customer care person copied.

 

[Diggs24]

Yeah, would like to see the actual fault code and the timestamp. Surprised you don't have that info at this point.

 

[Daks]

For what it is worth, when negotiating, never give a range. Set the anchor high/low, whatever the situation may be, and go from there. Best of luck.

 

[SAABTurboGuy]

Yeah, would like to see the actual fault code and the timestamp. Surprised you don't have that info at this point.

Yea, that's what I requested of the foreman. He said even if it was at the same time, it could be a side effect of something destroying the fuel injector. But I seriously doubt the low pressure fuel pump measurement is read at the fuel injector.

I'm keeping at it...going Vincent LaGuardia Gambini on each assertion they make

 

[GIACUser]

For anyone who is still following along

As Diggs had mentioned earlier in the thread, I long suspected that the fuel pump spazzed out, the car ran lean, and cylinder 1 self destructed. If the did occur, the foreman confirmed that I would be covered under the PZEV warranty as the fuel pump is a PZEV part.

However the foreman does not think that is what happened.

The car threw a code for low pressure from the low pressure fuel pump.

Foreman said it could be an old code that didn't trip a light, also the car would go into limp mode with EPC light on to protect itself.

I said the car did go into limp mode with check engine and EPC lights on and I limped along for a very short time before the engine died. He said the software would protect the engine. I said the software was clearly trying to protect the engine, and it eventually failed to do so. I work in the field, I know software is not perfect. I asked them to check the logs and see the timing of when that fuel pump code was thrown. Was it an old code it did it happen right before the engine failure?

The foreman said he suspects a mechanical failure, like a connecting rod. If the cylinder blew up and damaged the fuel injector, that would cause low fuel in the cylinder and a code. So my counter there was well where is the fuel pressure measurement taken? It surely can't be at the injector because then how would the system know to flag the low pressure fuel pump or the high pressure fuel pump as the cause? If the measurement is taken downstream of 2 possible causes then the cause is ambiguous.

So basically I need to know a)the timing of when that fuel pump fault was logged abd b) where is this measurement taken from?

Right now they are denying PZEV coverage based on a hypothesis.

I live for debugging/details/analysis like this...even when I don't have $10,000 at stake.

I have all of these sentiments of mine captured in emails with the VW customer care person copied.

"Foreman said it could be an old code....." - These fault codes are logged with time, mileage and frequency. The foreman"s comment is that of someone just shooting their mouth off about something that is easily verifiable. Having said that, I do find it hard that it would be the cause. These things have a LOT of protection against running lean. It is an unlikely cause, more likely a coincidence. You can ask for a copy of the faults log for the engine. You will be able to see when it failed (at what mile) compared to your current mileage.

"Foreman suspects....." - meaningless in terms of having any real knowledge about what was the cause. You need to tear it all apart to determine the cause, unfortunately the longer the car ran as it was tearing itself apart the harder to determine what broke first and what caused it.

Because of the extreme amount of labor it would take to ATTEMPT to define the cause by pulling the motor apart in sections with detailed inspection it makes no business sense for them to engage in such activity. As things sit they currently they are claiming nothing is under warranty but are none the less willing to provide goodwill assistance to move forward.

If you push for this they probably will do it but on your dime not theirs and you may or may not finds something to support your hope that this could be covered by PZEV warranty. If not, then you may end up adding 3K+ more to the expense of the car making your financial position worse.

While I wish you luck, I am not sure you can turn this into a PZEV warranty covered failure, at least not without taking an even bigger risk. You might want to read the PZEV doc before you move forward,

I think you have the following choices.
1. Sell car as is - take the loss - buy a replacement
2 . Put in a used motor and turbo - allow 6K in expense for a motor under 60K miles
3. Go with VW offer - 10K -

So I assume you probably won't do #1, my guess is you would get about 5K and it would take a while to sell. Really if 2 and 3 are your choices than you are talking about a 4K dollar difference. Given that you have taken such good care of the car why not seize the opportunity to put a new factory motor and turbo in it for just 4K more. It is like getting a brand new car you can drive for another 10 years.

In any event, I wish you luck with whatever you decide. Sometimes persistence can work in your favor. I still think you should go back to VW and try for 50/50 and push the feeling about the LPFP.... and that the foreman said it could cause it.... Then since we would all lose money doing extensive forensics why not just go 50/50. I think you could get them to go that way. That would be a very good outcome for you considering this could have all fallen on your wallet with no help.