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2019 GTI 6MT Stalling Issue

CFB_GTA

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Canada
No, the Office of Defects Investigation didn't conclude that higher viscosity oil wouldn't prevent engine stalling. In fact, if camshaft positioning at idle is crucial and this is a function of oil pressure, the results of this investigation begs the question: What's the simplest way to increase oil pressure at idle?

I'm going by anecdotal evidence by some on here and the Facebook group. If changing oil was the solution, then some of those that did would not have continued stalling.

Which begs the other question, does the oil system actually produce much lower oil pressures than before and how does that affect longevity?
 

RennWerks

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Hither n Yon
. . . .If changing oil was the solution, then some of those that did would not have continued stalling.
I've followed this issue fairly closely, and I haven't read a post here or elsewhere in which the poster indicated s/he'd experimented with a higher viscosity oil and continued to experience engine stalling. I have seen several to the contrary, however. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you can link one or more I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
 

dietcokefiend

Master of Disaster
Location
Ohio
"You are responsible for getting this resolved. Everybody else just moaned and groaned and griped - you did something. Everybody on the board who had the problem needs to buy you a beverage/lunch"


fixed that for you.

I only accept 12-packs of my favorite fizzy beverage.
 

dietcokefiend

Master of Disaster
Location
Ohio
Was the Silao Mexico plant not making all previous gti engines? I.e. is it a design issue, or a manufacturing issue?

What tolerance stacked up caused the problem? I.e. dimensions of what components were causing low oil pressure?

If the problem is with the oil pressure in the vanes of the cam adjuster, and it wasnt fixed by heavier weight oil, assuming its leaking through these tolerances, was the ecu programmed to alter the solenoid to compensate, or was the idle reprogrammed to just retard the timing enough not to overlap the exhaust valve? Were the tolerances for all engines assumed to be represented by the lemons bought back? Does the new oil pump generate less pressure and this is more of the reason over tolerances?

If it's truly tolerances that's the root cause, and I assume the tolerances are outside acceptable limits, how did this pass vw QA?

Is there an adverse and potential long term reliability effect of both valves allowed to be open at the same time?

And finally, why do we believe that the engines power output is not negatively affected, is it retarding timing enough???

Most probably there is nothing to worry about as the cars are fast enough, and dont make any nasty noises. I just get irked if engineers blame manufacturing /qa if it's really a design problem.

I seem to recall various programming options for when bleed off valves were triggered inside the engine block. I think these were visible in vagcom but something an individual can't change. There is probably a lot going on in the explaination of "low oil pressure caused XYZ".

If the new software carried over various values, it may have assumed less bleed off (values from 5w40) and triggered those other valves sooner. Higher weight oil alone probably wouldn't fix it completely since there were other variables in play as well (new oil pump gear, new software overall).

In terms of oil pressure affecting longevity of the engine... remember guys we aren't talking about oil getting starved from bearing journals. We are talking about the secondary use of oil acting as a hydraulic force exerting pressure on the camshaft timing gear movement. The engine had flow and pressure, but the hydralic use of it wasn't string enough to move that camshaft gear one way or another.
 

CFB_GTA

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Canada
I've followed this issue fairly closely, and I haven't read a post here or elsewhere in which the poster indicated s/he'd experimented with a higher viscosity oil and continued to experience engine stalling. I have seen several to the contrary, however. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you can link one or more I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

See if you can access this facebook link

https://m.facebook.com/story/graphq...fSTE2NTAxMjUzMzQ6Vks6MjE0NDUwNjgyMjMwNTY3Ng==


I seem to recall various programming options for when bleed off valves were triggered inside the engine block. I think these were visible in vagcom but something an individual can't change. There is probably a lot going on in the explaination of "low oil pressure caused XYZ".

If the new software carried over various values, it may have assumed less bleed off (values from 5w40) and triggered those other valves sooner. Higher weight oil alone probably wouldn't fix it completely since there were other variables in play as well (new oil pump gear, new software overall).

In terms of oil pressure affecting longevity of the engine... remember guys we aren't talking about oil getting starved from bearing journals. We are talking about the secondary use of oil acting as a hydraulic force exerting pressure on the camshaft timing gear movement. The engine had flow and pressure, but the hydralic use of it wasn't string enough to move that camshaft gear one way or another.

The following youtube link I thought was an excellent explanation of the system. I have no idea if this is applicable to our cars, or how the bleed off function you mention relates to it. Give it a watch, would appreciate if you can tie the two together for me.



Regarding oil pressure, the flow should be a function of the rpm (which I assume is now reduced), and also viscosity. More flow is good for engines that are driven harder. Too much pressure is bad too. Again, I bought the car thinking I was buying a proven design, and now that we some findings, I want to understand is it better or worse than before. I like more power due to a more efficient oiling system but not at sacrifice of longevity.
 

Corprin

Autocross Champion
Location
Magrathea
Car(s)
A car
And on page 202, doth the oil viscosity discussion begin anew.

The sands of time shall quickly occupy the occultist’s whispering eye.
 

RennWerks

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Hither n Yon
Couldn't open it.

The following youtube link I thought was an excellent explanation of the system. I have no idea if this is applicable to our cars, or how the bleed off function you mention relates to it. Give it a watch, would appreciate if you can tie the two together for me.

Excellent article! As engine rpm fails off, there's a concomitant decline in oil pressure, which, in turn, in an EA-888 engine retards the cam timing. Ultimately, without sufficient oil pressure, the engine stalls. Consequently, maintaining sufficient oil pressure is crucial and a function of rpm and oil viscosity. For years (15?), 5W-40 (or 0W-40) was "the" oil weight/viscosity prescribed for the EA-888 engine series. What changed? For a host of reasons (including, no doubt, the possibility of selling CAFE energy credits), VW AG decided that in our U.S. operating environment -- i.e., not a lot of autobahns -- 0W-20 weight oil is sufficient. The latest back-and-worth vis-a-vis the EMU programming is VoA's way of sorting it out.

Regarding oil pressure, the flow pressure should be is a function of the rpm (which I assume is now reduced), and also viscosity. . . .
Spot on!
 

CFB_GTA

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Canada
Excellent article! As engine rpm fails off, there's a concomitant decline in oil pressure, which, in turn, in an EA-888 engine retards the cam timing. Ultimately, without sufficient oil pressure, the engine stalls. Consequently, maintaining sufficient oil pressure is crucial and a function of rpm and oil viscosity.

According to the findings,

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/2019-gti-6mt-stalling-issue.363310/post-7463806

The low oil pressure is advancing the timing, not retarding.

Also, assuming the oil pumps are positive displacement pumps, they are ideally constant flow machines at any given rpm. Pressure isnt a function of the rpm, but rather of the restrictions the flow is subjected to.

A lot of facts in this debacle still dont make sense to me. I for one would benefit if someone could talk through vws explanation and how it relates mechanically to our cars.
 

RennWerks

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Hither n Yon
. . . The low oil pressure is advancing the timing, not retarding.
Actually, I believe the effect of low oil pressure is it leaves the intake cam in an advanced position, which results in a diluted intake charge that is insufficient for combustion. In other words, pre-"fix," there was insufficient oil pressure to retard the cam. Also, I don't think any of the quoted material is Volkswagen's explanation of the issue or its solution; it's ODI. VW's explanation is probably not subject to disclosure other than to ODI.
 

Desslok

Autocross Champion
Location
PA
Car(s)
2019 Rabbit
Volkswagen determined that the low speed / idle engine stall was the result of unwanted gases remaining in the
cylinder caused by the intake valve camshaft not being in the correct position at idle. The intake camshaft is in an
advanced position. This advanced position results in too much overlap with the position of the exhaust valve camshaft,
allowing both the intake and exhaust valves to be open at the same time. The erroneous advanced position of the
intake camshaft is a result of low oil pressure at idle and high oil temperatures, greater than or equal to 110°C/230°F
combined with engine control algorithms in the Engine Control Module (ECM) that position the intake camshaft. Based
on examination of returned engines, only engines manufactured at the Silao Mexico plant were affected due to a
tolerance stack-up issue with the oil system of the engines.

That explains why the issue was only seen on cars in the Americas

What is the explanation for cars that stopped stalling all on their own? Mine stalled 5 or 6 times within the first 1k miles and then never again. Got over 15k miles now.

Also, how does VW's fix affect cars that are tuned? I keep getting nagged by the dealer about the recall, but have an APR tune and don't want to pay to get it reinstalled if the fix wipes it.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
What is the explanation for cars that stopped stalling all on their own? Mine stalled 5 or 6 times within the first 1k miles and then never again. Got over 15k miles now.

Also, how does VW's fix affect cars that are tuned? I keep getting nagged by the dealer about the recall, but have an APR tune and don't want to pay to get it reinstalled if the fix wipes it.

And the update updates your ECU so I don't know how the dealer could update it with the APR tune without wiping it. Can the dealer even do that?
 

nimonery

Go Kart Champion
Location
CA
Car(s)
2020 A3
And the update updates your ECU so I don't know how the dealer could update it with the APR tune without wiping it. Can the dealer even do that?

They will just overrite the tune. It happened for my Jetta that had stage 1 APR and I was REQUIRED by the state of California to get an ECM flash recall since it was related to "emissions". So I had to go to the dealer, have them flash my car with the recall update (which deleted the tune), get the paper saying its done then had to pay for the tune to be reinstalled. :rolleyes:
 
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