APR DTR6054 Direct Turbocharger Replacement System

[GTI Jake]

All of this is sort of my question. The APR website used to list a DP as required hardware, but now it seems intentionally vague and doesn't say if their IS38 GTI Dyno chart used a DP or not. Even if it wasn't faster, I'd probably prefer the torque curve and power delivery over the DTR. I'm just not seeing a plug and play solution for the IS38 like they're advertising for this. I'd be perfectly happy with an FCP IS38 and AP tune for the stock DP too (already have an AP), but doesn't seem like anyone offers it yet and I'm not interested in the cost and hassle of a custom tune again.

APR definitely does, I’m sure you get a better answer at the dealer level with your car hooked up to the laptop (they’ll have a list of tunes to choose from).

 

[CarbonDub]

Not pointing fingers at anyone, but I’m sensing a lot of salt in the air over my is38>DTR jab.

APR has had a is38 OEM DP file since 2016 IIRC, and lack of advertisements for such recently is probably to keep eyes off the fact that having such a file implies there’s also a aftermarket downpipe file.

I wasn’t saying “hey everyone, run exactly my mod list” I was saying is38 from FCP with a lifetime warranty still seems to be the best entry level option both for daily driving manners & performance on a budget.

Intercooler, IS38, tune, dogbone insert & tune (plus DSG tune or clutch) will out everything a DTR only car and best or match a apples to apples DTR car (that’s why they didn’t post a video of that comparison).

This isn’t speculative, the Golf R guys running nearly identical numbers backs it up.



If I’m not mistaken Mini7 tracks his car extensively on the OEM DP is38 file.

Respectfully disagree that a DTR Golf R runs a similar 1/8 or 1/4 mile to a Stage 1 R - link from this thread where @Patrykd07 assesses his stage 1 R vs the DTR. Stock DP IS38 R traps 4mph less in the 1/8 mile than the DTR.

If this thread has shown anything it’s that peak hp isn’t everything… still an IS38 with stock DP on a GTI has a similar shaped power curve to the DTR (IS38 has a bit quicker spool), but the DTR makes significantly more power everywhere from 4k to redline:

260 whp (IS38) vs 290 whp (DTR) @4k - 330 whp (peak IS38) vs 375 whp (DTR) @ 5.5k. After that the DTR continues to pull to 7.2k.

Torque is 357 wtq (peak IS38) vs 360 wtq (DTR) @ 3.5k, pretty much even. DTR peak is only a few hundred rpm later, 387 wtq @ 4k.

Point is I highly doubt an IS38 with stock DP would ever outperform a DTR, apples to apples on a GTI or Golf R (I think we have decent proof for this case with the R).

Still I am curious, what is Mini7’s GTI trapping in a 1/4 mile (if they’ve done any passes)?

 

[Mreed055]

Honda Grom > DTR

The ol Honda grom. Would recommend.

 

[GTI Jake]

Respectfully disagree that a DTR Golf R runs a similar 1/8 or 1/4 mile to a Stage 1 R - link from this thread where @Patrykd07 assesses his stage 1 R vs the DTR. Stock DP IS38 R traps 4mph less in the 1/8 mile than the DTR.

If this thread has shown anything it’s that peak hp isn’t everything… still an IS38 with stock DP on a GTI has a similar shaped power curve to the DTR (IS38 has a bit quicker spool), but the DTR makes significantly more power everywhere from 4k to redline:

260 whp (IS38) vs 290 whp (DTR) @4k - 330 whp (peak IS38) vs 375 whp (DTR) @ 5.5k. After that the DTR continues to pull to 7.2k.

Torque is 357 wtq (peak IS38) vs 360 wtq (DTR) @ 3.5k, pretty much even. DTR peak is only a few hundred rpm later, 387 wtq @ 4k.

Point is I highly doubt an IS38 with stock DP would ever outperform a DTR, apples to apples on a GTI or Golf R (I think we have decent proof for this case with the R).

Still I am curious, what is Mini7’s GTI trapping in a 1/4 mile (if they’ve done any passes)?

He tracks at VIR, not a 1/4 mile guy at all (his suspension & brake set up is worth more than some Mk7s). Comparison of back straight MPH to other modded Mk7s on that straight the car still runs very strong up top (in the neighborhood of 135-140mph IIRC).

I haven’t seen the DTR make its advertised numbers, so screen shots of dynos charts aren’t changing my mind in favor of R guys dropping $1500+ installation for a basically parallel move (same goes for is38 GTI).

It might be the move for someone starting out bone stock, then all they’d “need” is a intercooler, but I’d still recommend is38 with the information we have currently.

 

[CarbonDub]

He tracks at VIR, not a 1/4 mile guy at all (his suspension & brake set up is worth more than some Mk7s). Comparison of back straight MPH to other modded Mk7s on that straight the car still runs very strong up top (in the neighborhood of 135-140mph IIRC).

I haven’t seen the DTR make its advertised numbers, so screen shots of dynos charts aren’t changing my mind in favor of R guys dropping $1500+ installation for a basically parallel move (same goes for is38 GTI).

It might be the move for someone starting out bone stock, then all they’d “need” is a intercooler, but I’d still recommend is38 with the information we have currently.

Has an APR tuned stock DP IS38 made its advertised numbers? Obviously we can agree to disagree but it’s gotta be a fair comparison with solid proof on both sides - doesn’t make sense placing the burden of real world proof only on the DTR while comparing to hypotheticals and dyno charts for the alternatives. Dyno to dyno or real world to real world on the same platform/setup.

I agree the DTR’s value proposition is significantly less for R/IS38 owners, as has been said more than a few times now. DTR has just provided GTI owners with a reasonably-priced hardware option to skip stage 2… call it Stage 3-lite.

Stage 1 in a GTI is still just too practical and well-balanced to ever say “skip it” IMO, always nice to have a reliable software only option.

But if you’re gonna do hardware would you rather buy a DP and a tune or a DTR? Price-to-performance says DTR > Stage 2 all day, but the DTR is then basically your endgame. If you’re already willing/able to run an aftermarket DP to be considering Stage 2, an IS38 with DP is a more well-rounded and possibly better performing (albeit a bit more pricey) option than the DTR.

Stage 2 could somewhat make sense if you know you’re eventually going IS38 - but you’ll be paying for a tune twice so it’s definitely not the most cost-efficient path.

Documented performance of the GTI with IS38 and stock DP seems to be the missing link here as the cost is similar to DTR.

GTI Stage 1 ($) —> Stage 2 ($$)
GTI Stage 1 ($) —> DTR ($$)
GTI Stage 1 ($) —> IS38 ($$)
GTI Stage 1 ($) —> IS38 + DP ($$$)
GTI Stage 2 ($$) —> IS38 + DP ($$)

 

[GTI Jake]

I agree 100%, going straight to ________turbo upgrade is the best bet if you’re able. Saving on tuning & labor time for sure.

The OEM DP is38 setup is a rare bird, but prior to the DTR kit I’ve never seen APR number from the dyno or 1/4 mile under perform.

My personal cars trap speeds, all at Zmax in 90*F heat (that’s the only time they’ve been open the last decade).

Mk7 GTI

APR stage 1. 110mph
APR stage 2. 111mph
APR is38. 115mph

Going back even further in APR history.

Mk6 GTI

APR stage 2 107.5mph (100 octane file)
APR stage 2 106mph

 

[tigeo]

I agree 100%, going straight to ________turbo upgrade is the best bet if you’re able. Saving on tuning & labor time for sure.

The OEM DP is38 setup is a rare bird, but prior to the DTR kit I’ve never seen APR number from the dyno or 1/4 mile under perform.

My personal cars trap speeds, all at Zmax in 90*F heat (that’s the only time they’ve been open the last decade).

Mk7 GTI

APR stage 1. 110mph
APR stage 2. 111mph
APR is38. 115mph

Going back even further in APR history.

Mk6 GTI

APR stage 2 107.5mph (100 octane file)
APR stage 2 106mph

I'd say based on the weight difference with audia3's A3 vs. your GTI, your 115 is comparable to his 113s at the same temps etc. a few weeks ago.

 

[PerceivedShift]

The big elephant in the room when it comes to this DTR turbo, it's got laaaag. While we can talk all day how we can or can not trust dyno numbers, dynos do a great job of showing the shape of an engine's power output while also showing the behavior of a specific turbo. APR claims from their website it makes peak torque around 4k rpm:

Dyno graphs for the DTR are very elusive, but I've caught a few:

Seriously, why are these so hard to find...

So far we can say with decent confidence the DTR does not make full boost until about 4400rpm from the evidence. Even with the stock DP I fail to see how it is acceptable that this custom designed dual BB turbo, built from the ground up in the crystal labs of APR, still manages to spool 600rpms slower than a Vortex XL. 400rpms slower than advertised. Am I off the rocker here? Just look at the advert for this turbo, it sounds and looks like a slam dunk. This turbo lag would hit manual drivers the hardest as they wait for this literal snail to re-spool between shifts. For this reason they should probably place "For DSGs only" on the DTR page.

This kit would make a lot more sense with a much faster spooling IS38+ marketed to GTI owners as a stage 3 one stop shop solution, as this kit is already a hard sell for R owners anyways.

But the question is....is it possible APR could have built a turbo which delivers similar numbers as advertised, on the stock DP, and without all the lag?

EQT Proved to us, yes.....yes they could:

I rest my case.

 

[Diggs24]

It is laggy but peak tq at 4400 doesn’t equate to lagginess. Before I upgraded my housing it would spool to 28 or so psi by 3300. Peak torque was at about 4800.

 

[PerceivedShift]

It is laggy but peak tq at 4400 doesn’t equate to lagginess. Before I upgraded my housing it would spool to 28 or so psi by 3300. Peak torque was at about 4800.

This is true, but its a strong indicator, but I think I forgot to mention that in past videos where throttle is punched it indeed takes its time to spool up.

 

[GTI Jake]

I'd say based on the weight difference with audia3's A3 vs. your GTI, your 115 is comparable to his 113s at the same temps etc. a few weeks ago.

Probably, my car being the most basic trim GTI I’d say it’s a few hundred pounds lighter.

Also, being so light and a 6MT really takes advantage of the longer gear ratios.

 

[Salami]

Probably, my car being the most basic trim GTI I’d say it’s a few hundred pounds lighter.

Also, being so light and a 6MT really takes advantage of the longer gear ratios.

300lb weight difference in weight from GTI to A3. That would change the trap speed a decent amount.

 

[GTI Jake]

300lb weight difference in weight from GTI to A3. That would change the trap speed a decent amount.

I’d estimate about a extra 75-100# off my car between the exhaust & BBK, so 400lbs-ish

 

[Salami]

I’d estimate about a extra 75-100# off my car between the exhaust & BBK, so 400lbs-ish

Well, shit. Why ain't your car faster then?

 

[GTI Jake]

Well, shit. Why ain't your car faster then?

They’re never fast enough haha