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The Official Unofficial E85 Ethanol Thread

Stage2Sasquatch

Go Kart Champion
Hey guys, I thought that I would make a thread to talk about gods nectar I.E E85. For some of you that don't know, APR is developing a flex-fuel system for MK7's that will make ethanol use more mainstream and easy. Burger Motorsport with their JB1 PNP unit is also setup to run an ethanol mix.

For those of you who don't know, E85 is a mix of 85% denatured ethanol fuel and 15% regular gasoline. The "E" in front denotes that is has ethanol content, and the number "85" is how much of it. So E30 would be 30% Ethanol, and 70% Gasoline, just like E50 would be 50% Ethanol and 50% Gasoline.

Here are some of the Pro's and Cons:

Pros:
1. Cheaper by volume
2. Has extreme knock resistance (Less denotation)
3. Has near racegas octane rating (100-104 octane)
4. Excellent cooling properties
5. Allows tuners to bump up the timing a lot meaning much more power in some cases.
6. Reduced carbon-monoxide emissions

Cons:
1. Harder to find in some areas
2. Needs 30% more fuel for the same stoic burn.
3. Not as popular in the VW/Audi world
4. Has corrosive properties

What is "Flex-fuel"?

Have you ever seen those flex-fuel badges on the back of some Chevy's and other cars? Basically what it means is that the car has a ECU and fuel system that will calculate the amount of ethanol in the gas tank and will adjust the tune to get the most out of it. So let's say you can't find E85 anywhere and have to use 100% gas? No problem, just fill up the tank and go. Let's say you find a E85 pump and fill up with 100% E85? No problem, just fill up the tank and go. Let's say you have half a tank of gas and fill the rest up with E85? No problem, just fill up the tank and go. That's the beauty of it, the ECU does all the work. This is why APR is going this route because it's fool-proof and easy.

Will it hurt my car?

Generally no. All cars sold in the US past 2004 are setup to run at least 10% of ethanol content that is already in the current pump gas today. This means that the cars fueling systems are up to the task of running low ethanol contents. However, in order to run high contents and to get the most out of ethanol you may need a tune specifically for it or fueling components that can handle the higher 30% of fuel needed.

Here's a video of me asking DAP why E85 use isn't popular yet in the VW/Audi world.


The purpose of this thread is to start talking about E85 and bring it into the mainstream like it is with every other car scene. If you have any questions or something to add post below. Let's get talking about how to make 20+HP with nothing but a change in fuel.
 
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Stage2Sasquatch

Go Kart Champion
How do I log a blend of gas and E85?

These cars have very advanced ECU's. They will adapt to many different engine parameters that have allowed people to run some significant blends without changing their tune. In order to figure out if it is safe and running well here's the things that you need to log. Remember, always run logs in a safe place and start your pull down low I.E. 2000 rpm.

Here's what you need to log:
Item # Vag-Com
Block # Description

1 001-1 Engine Speed
2 014-3 Misfire Sum
3 031-1 Lambda, Current Value
4 054-3 Accelerator Pedal Position
5 054-4 Throttle Plate Angle
6 101-3 Injection Timing (Median)
7* 103-1*Current Fuel Pressure*
8 114-4 N75 Duty Cycle
9 115-3 Boost Pressure (Specified)
10 115-4 Boost Pressure (Actual)
11 230-1 Rail Pressure - Specified
12 230-2 Rail Pressure - Actual
Short term adaptation of mixture formation bank 1

Source & Credit: http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php
More on this later as I get more information from HYDE16.

:thumbsup:
 
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drepai1

New member
Location
Los Angeles
My mk6 tsi picked up 100whp by switching from 91 octane to an e47 blend, we added 5 psi and a few degrees of timing before we ran out of fuel. At 35 psi it pulls ZERO timing even after multiple hot runs. The motor is much happier than it was on 91. Had to use a fifth injector to get enough headroom to run it, it's pretty simple to setup though. Who's gonna do it on a mk7 first? :D
 

vdubguy29

Ready to race!
Location
Pearland, Tx
this definitely sparked my interest as well, with apr e85 tune switchable with th 93 octane tune if you cant find any e85? Luckily here in Houston Texas krogars a vast and plentiful...and so is the fountains that spew GODS NECTAR:D
 

andrewha

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Costa Mesa
My mk6 tsi picked up 100whp by switching from 91 octane to an e47 blend, we added 5 psi and a few degrees of timing before we ran out of fuel. At 35 psi it pulls ZERO timing even after multiple hot runs. The motor is much happier than it was on 91. Had to use a fifth injector to get enough headroom to run it, it's pretty simple to setup though. Who's gonna do it on a mk7 first? :D


i was there that day when they were tuning your mk6 at autuning, that shit was badass, when theres eurodyne maestro im definitely gonna get my car tuned at autuning to run e85 and make some good power
 

LeGti

Ready to race!
Location
France
Thanks for the thread, IN to learn more about using E85 in the Gen3 EA888!!

The presentator mentioned in the video that E85 degrades faster. Wasn't aware of this...


Using VCDS to log, what would you look for in testing increasing percentages of E85? Timing? Injector duty %?
 

AZGTI2

Ready to race!
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Thank you for this. Any speculation as to why the E85 gains on the APR IS38 tune are somewhat minimal compared to other E85 tunes on different platforms? I understand that may be an apples/oranges thing, but I am used to seeing 50+ wheel hp gains on e85..
 

Stage2Sasquatch

Go Kart Champion
If drepai picking up OVER 100WHP doesn't get you guys excited for E85, I don't know what will haha. Thanks for sharing mate. We'll have to see how well the fueling is on these new motors, maybe they won't require an aux injector for ~500whp stuff.

this definitely sparked my interest as well, with apr e85 tune switchable with th 93 octane tune if you cant find any e85? Luckily here in Houston Texas krogars a vast and plentiful...and so is the fountains that spew GODS NECTAR:D

:) Well the way I understand it from APR is they will be creating different maps for each fuel. So for instance, if you are on the 93 octane file then it will load the 93 octane profile and then depending on the Ethanol content the map will change and interpolate the difference. I.E. you won't ever have to touch or switch ANYTHING, the ECU will do it on it's own.

Thanks for the thread, IN to learn more about using E85 in the Gen3 EA888!!
The presentator mentioned in the video that E85 degrades faster. Wasn't aware of this...
Using VCDS to log, what would you look for in testing increasing percentages of E85? Timing? Injector duty %?

No problem, and yes Ethanol does degrade faster but honestly unless your car is sitting for months straight it won't matter. I updated the second post with some information about logging and I am talking to HYDE16 over on the MK6 forums. He is a literal guru when it comes to logging and ethanol so I will update the post as I learn more.

Thank you for this. Any speculation as to why the E85 gains on the APR IS38 tune are somewhat minimal compared to other E85 tunes on different platforms? I understand that may be an apples/oranges thing, but I am used to seeing 50+ wheel hp gains on e85..

Per APR they said they can reach MBT (Maximum Brake Torque timing) on 93 octane. Meaning they can reach peak timing that provides maximum torque on a 93 octane profile. This is circumstantial but that's one of the reasons why we aren't seeing huge 50+ whp gains. That being said there is gains all under the curve as well as it keeping the power stronger for longer so there is still great benefits to be had, even though the peak numbers aren't too much different.
 
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HYDE162

Passed Driver's Ed
I updated the second post with some information about logging and I am talking to HYDE16 over on the MK6 forums. He is a literal guru when it comes to logging and ethanol so I will update the post as I learn more.

Thank you for the compliment and for bringing me into this thread. I can help those work with their cars and logging tools to see which ethanol blend may be safe for their tune.
 

Mojo_BR

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Brazil
In Brazil most cars as already flexfuel, I believe only imports nowadays are not. Golf will be made here (anytime now, production may already have began) and a flex 1.4T is in the cards.

Regular gas sold anywhere is at least 25% ethanol, an amount that may be changed up or down anytime as per producers convenience (just as hard to believe to us Brazilians as to anyone else) with claimed zero-impact in cars, even not flex ones. Gas is so crappy over here it might be true.

Anyway the good part : we get 100% ethanol at any station and it´s less prone to being adultered, plus is cheaper than gas. I currently have a JB1 in and am waiting very anxiously for ethanol support. I tend to believe that even without changing boost safety car will make more power just by dialing it in the current ethanol % as it will be user adjustable.
 

vegatune

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
jax
Thank you for this. Any speculation as to why the E85 gains on the APR IS38 tune are somewhat minimal compared to other E85 tunes on different platforms? I understand that may be an apples/oranges thing, but I am used to seeing 50+ wheel hp gains on e85..

It depends on what they did with the tune and what auto adjust with tune. I'm just assuming because I have never looked into a vw ecu hex file and what definition they have access to or what coding they have added on top of it. It's obvious that they have access to a stock ethanol sensor or added coding to the ecu to add an ethanol sensor. They are able to tune the Afr portion of that based on ethanol content percentage for sure. What I'm not sure if they have the boost and timing control tied into like an aem ems. With the aem ems you have a pump gas tune with timing,Afr,boost based on that gas. Also you have an e85 tune. Let's say you run 23 psi,15 deg on pump and 30 psi, 18 deg on e 85 the ecu would adjust Psi,Afr,timing between those 2 points base on ethanol percentage. I think they are just adjusting Afr but not boost or timing based on ethanol percentage. That's the only reason they only gained 20HP. I'm just assuming though. Most cars that I have tuned do gain about 40HP on stock turbos over 100HP on 35r and up.
 

gn4rwhals

Go Kart Champion
Location
Detroit, MI
Regarding the corrosive properties of E85, have we had confirmation that the seals/lines in the MK7 can handle full E85 load or only a mix?

Also usually you have to upgrade fuel injectors for E85 due to the burn rate, I have not seen anything like this yet (unless that is what APR is launching).
 

gn4rwhals

Go Kart Champion
Location
Detroit, MI
I'm currently running Unitronic's stg 1.5 with 93 octane here in Texas. If I run an e30 mix, will I see any gains?

Unless tuned for it I doubt it, however the car may run cleaner timing and could possibly create more power.
 
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