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Water methanol injection vs upgrading intercooler
- Thread starter marc5800
- Start date
BronxBomber
Ready to race!
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- Orlando,FL
Also, just to throw it out there. WMI has the added benefit of helping keep your valves clean. Money saved down the road by not having to get the valves cleaned of carbon build up. Hope this makes it easier to decide
Also, just to throw it out there. WMI has the added benefit of helping keep your valves clean. Money saved down the road by not having to get the valves cleaned of carbon build up. Hope this makes it easier to decide
This is just not true. In theory it should be but it just doesn't work that way.
Does it provide some buildup prevention? Sure, a little. But I ran meth on my previous MK5 TSI for 30k miles, installed immediately after the head was rebuilt (and subsequently the valves and ports were immaculate). I can tell you 100% there was valve accumulation similar to other 30k mile motors I've seen when I had the manifold back off for an injector failure.
Gas however cleans them. Once I added the 5th injector it did have a noticeable impact on valve buildup (Gen 1 TSI fueling options sucked at the time)
Just to be clear you will not get anymore advance than is programmed in your tune. In summer when the heat is causing timing to retard it will help you get back to the advance called for by the tune but never exceed what is programmed into the tune.
Because running water meth is a decent substitute for running higher octane fuel the best way to go is to get a stage 2 tune that is set for 100oct fuel and actually enjoy the extra power above your current tune. Works great, i drove my MKV GTI that way daily for 4 years and will soon be running it again the same way with a big turbo setup.
Thanks for clearing that up. Makes sense.
From what I understand (correct me If I'm wrong) The addition of WMI will essentially make sure I'm not loosing any power during warmer months. The timing will remain at the maximum set by the tune.
What are the affects of running a tune set for 93 oct with WMI? More power left on the table because it's limited to 93?
Diggs24
Autocross Champion
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- de plains! de plains!
- Car(s)
- 2015 GTI
marauder
Go Kart Newbie
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- Northern Va
A lot of these questions all depend on how much meth you intend to flow, how often and and what concentration.
Water meth will help clean valves. How much it cleans depends on the concentration, a higher methanol concentration will clean better. windshield washer fluids usually maxes out at 40%. It also depends on how often you are flowing meth. Gasoline will clean better than meth due to the detergents in gasoline.
Keeping that in mind, there's the cost of ownership associated with running Meth. It's a maintenance item. Especially with the cold temps you see. You need to refill the meth tank regularly. If you're using higher % meth, it can get pricey. Then you also want to check the lines for breakage, leaking, clogs. the nozzles etc.
Running a stack can work, but you want to be careful how much you push it, as how much you add depends on how much you're flowing. I would say the ideal way is to get a customt tune for meth, so the tune is built around the specific amount of meth you are flowing and at the concentration you want to run. This is something we do with Cobb tunes. Burger Motorsports may be able to help you with this on the JB4 I would recommend reaching out to them.
The intercooler is one and done, not additional cost or maintenance. It also works throughout the entire rev range regardless of load. So you pick up power and efficiency everywhere.
Meth if tuned properly can net you more HP, but the cooling effect of meth isn't going to offer the same cooling as an intercooler would.
Water meth will help clean valves. How much it cleans depends on the concentration, a higher methanol concentration will clean better. windshield washer fluids usually maxes out at 40%. It also depends on how often you are flowing meth. Gasoline will clean better than meth due to the detergents in gasoline.
Keeping that in mind, there's the cost of ownership associated with running Meth. It's a maintenance item. Especially with the cold temps you see. You need to refill the meth tank regularly. If you're using higher % meth, it can get pricey. Then you also want to check the lines for breakage, leaking, clogs. the nozzles etc.
Running a stack can work, but you want to be careful how much you push it, as how much you add depends on how much you're flowing. I would say the ideal way is to get a customt tune for meth, so the tune is built around the specific amount of meth you are flowing and at the concentration you want to run. This is something we do with Cobb tunes. Burger Motorsports may be able to help you with this on the JB4 I would recommend reaching out to them.
The intercooler is one and done, not additional cost or maintenance. It also works throughout the entire rev range regardless of load. So you pick up power and efficiency everywhere.
Meth if tuned properly can net you more HP, but the cooling effect of meth isn't going to offer the same cooling as an intercooler would.
JKoehle
Ready to race!
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- Phoenix AZ
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- 2018 Golf R
^^^ Meth isn’t too expensive if you know where to look. End of season sales on HEET can get down to less than a $1 a bottle, and short of actually buying from a chemical supplier I’d imagine that’s the cheapest way to get it.
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No car that I have touched has really benefited by meth all that much on this platform using the single throttle body injection point. There are no guarantees of even atomisation, and the amount needed to make measurable gains in timing are very high (which agains needs a custom tune). Meth will make less power unless you up advance and boost, so to me - unless you are going to do it PROPERLY, as in direct port - there is no way I would use meth on this car. Intercooler also aids in part throttle timing which increases MPG - meth isn't on all the time.
This is coming from someone who ran meth himself and has seen a few cars dyno with it. The gains were minimal. You are better off sourcing E85 and running a blend (which we have locally, Marc). Then you get greater timing and boost threshold while considerably lowering cylinder temperatures.
Throttle pipe meth is a band-aid IMO (unless combined in a multi stage setup).
This is coming from someone who ran meth himself and has seen a few cars dyno with it. The gains were minimal. You are better off sourcing E85 and running a blend (which we have locally, Marc). Then you get greater timing and boost threshold while considerably lowering cylinder temperatures.
Throttle pipe meth is a band-aid IMO (unless combined in a multi stage setup).
So my plan would be to only spray meth at a certain rpm / boost setting that can be done with the JB4.
During colder month, I wouldn't even be running the meth or the JB4 stack for that matter.
You're right - the WMI might end up being more $$$ down the road since it needs refilling. However, since I would only use it during summer, the cost wouldn't as high as expected.
Either way - I'd be working with George from BMS in order to fine tune the WMI settings with the tune and JB4.
I see both options (Intercooler vs Meth) having pros and cons. The biggest advantage the IC route has is ''set it and forget it''.
Decisions ...
Wow interesting! Most plp I've talked to praise the use of Meth on this platform but quickly mention the maintenance associated with it.
Thanks for the input Matt
There is no cons to the intercooler option.
Meth is the cheap way out, it's that simple. It's one thing to buy a $1500 aquamist system that equally distributes meth between all the cylinders and another to run a throttle pipe setup and expect increased performance from it (all it is really doing is giving you repeatable runs at the track. A JB4+CM5 is like less than 5% if the fuel your engine consumes under WOT, no appreciable octane benefit).
P.S. you are literally following almost the exact same path I went down. Learn from me; do it once, do it right.
Get a quality IC like the IE, CTS, Uni or APR and sleep knowing you made the right decision.
Hell, I will help you install it.
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To build on this, anyone thinking about using methanol for fueling support (hybrid IS38s, boss 500s) for god sakes use Aquamist. Between the PWM valve, multiple failsafe's, and the genuinely impressive fittings/manifolds, there is no reason to choose another option.
If you want some cheap additional cooling, BMS and other off the shelf systems work fine.
That being said, anyone seen any Aquamist installs on MK7s? I've done a few on mk6s.