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APR Stage I ECU & TCU Upgrade

Zero-Phux-Given

New member
Location
California
Hello, I have a 2015 VW Golf 1.8L TSI S (6-Speed Automatic)

I'm considering getting the APR Stage I ECU & TCU Upgrade, in total with tax and labor it would cost me $1,374.43

I hear a lot of people say APR is good, so I don't doubt that; however, am I getting the most bang for the buck with APR or am I paying a premium for convenience?
 

PLF8593

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Philly
Car(s)
19 Alltrack 6MT
You’re actually paying a premium for LESS convenience, since you have to go to an authorized APR dealer and pay them shop time to flash your ECU.

Also your car doesn’t have a DSG, so there isn’t a TCU upgrade for you (as far as I’m aware)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Zero-Phux-Given

New member
Location
California
You’re actually paying a premium for LESS convenience, since you have to go to an authorized APR dealer and pay them shop time to flash your ECU.

Also your car doesn’t have a DSG, so there isn’t a TCU upgrade for you (as far as I’m aware)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So what would be a better option compared to APR?

Also I was told my car could get the TCU upgraded, how can I actually check and verify?
 

espo92

Ready to race!
Location
Orlando, Florida
Car(s)
2016 Audi A3 2.0T
Unless you have a GSW w/ a DSG (its pretty obvious) there are no TCU tunes for you. As for convenience, the stage 1 tune is nice, you flash and forget about it. Maintenance is about the same.
As stated, with APR you currently cannot flash at home, or change tunes (91,93,updates or whatever).
If you want to be able to do this, you can look at the JB4 (map 1) which you can set and forget, and is relatively undetectable if you unplug it. You can then customize with map 6.
Also, unitronic does have a tune which you can use the uniconnect cable at home to change your tune.
 

MeltedSolid

Autocross Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
'15 Golf, e36 328i
Yup, there's definitely no TCU tune for your car. Don't bother checking unless you have specifically a 4wd sportwagon or GTI/R.

Probably the best thing about APR is it's the highest power set and forget it tune. Overall it's pretty good and reliable, and with no clutch there's really nothing that has been known to induce a bunch of extra cost with it. Really the only thing to think about is to change your spark plugs more often (every 10-15k miles). On top of that, APR isn't really any more expensive than anything except the JB4, which is essentially the other end of the spectrum. The JB4's set and forget it mode is probably the lowest power option out there, but if you take your time with it and put effort in you can get the most power of any single option if you're willing to do things like run e85 fuel or add methanol injection. Also because the JB4 doesn't actually chance anything on your ECU it won't affect your warranty if you're willing to remove it during dealer visits, but it can't remove things like the speed limiter and no left-foot braking.

Also, you may have seen, but APR is having a major sale until the 31st, so your ECU tune should only come out to $510 plus tax and plus labor if the shop decides that sitting while a computer uploads for <15 minutes deserves them actually earning any money (mine didn't charge me labor, but most do).
 
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Zero-Phux-Given

New member
Location
California
Unless you have a GSW w/ a DSG (its pretty obvious) there are no TCU tunes for you. As for convenience, the stage 1 tune is nice, you flash and forget about it. Maintenance is about the same.
As stated, with APR you currently cannot flash at home, or change tunes (91,93,updates or whatever).
If you want to be able to do this, you can look at the JB4 (map 1) which you can set and forget, and is relatively undetectable if you unplug it. You can then customize with map 6.
Also, unitronic does have a tune which you can use the uniconnect cable at home to change your tune.

Is the JB4 difficult to install and use?
Also will the JB4 be worse than the APR Stage I ECU or how does it compare to APR?

Yup, there's definitely no TCU tune for your car. Don't bother checking unless you have specifically a 4wd sportwagon or GTI/R.

Probably the best thing about APR is it's the highest power set and forget it tune. Overall it's pretty good and reliable, and with no clutch there's really nothing that has been known to induce a bunch of extra cost with it. Really the only thing to think about is to change your spark plugs more often (every 10-15k miles). On top of that, APR isn't really any more expensive than anything except the JB4, which is essentially the other end of the spectrum. The JB4's set and forget it mode is probably the lowest power option out there, but if you take your time with it and put effort in you can get the most power of any single option if you're willing to do things like run e85 fuel or add methanol injection. Also because the JB4 doesn't actually chance anything on your ECU it won't affect your warranty if you're willing to remove it during dealer visits, but it can't remove things like the speed limiter and no left-foot braking.

What makes the APR tune have more power than the JB4?
 

MeltedSolid

Autocross Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
'15 Golf, e36 328i
What makes the APR tune have more power than the JB4?

That is a very long story with answers that I don't even fully understand yet, but basically the tune has direct control over every single part of the engine, whereas the JB4 only has indirect control over most parts of the engine. For example, APR adjusts the injector duty cycle directly in their tune which allows them to run a much richer AFR and have a higher fueling ceiling in general without maxing out the trims like the JB4 will. Also, APR has directly changed the timing map whereas the JB4 can only indirectly change the timing map by encouraging the ECU to think it's experiencing different conditions than it is. This is only a tiny part of the story.

The biggest advantage of the JB4 is you can adjust things on the fly to suit your car, weather, etc... and can monitor it all quite easily. As you can see in my signature I have both, giving me the best of both worlds. I am not very close to my fueling limit and can run very high boost (at the expense of timing) because of my APR tune, but I have the ability to adjust for my turbo swap and take advantage of e85 because of my JB4.

If you are willing to put a bit of time into tuning with the JB4, and by that I mean a few hours over the course of a week or two, it's really not that hard to work with. The biggest resource we have is George Smooth, who's job at Burger Tuning as far as I can tell is to spend all day every day looking at JB4 logs and telling people what to change to make it better. He's pretty awesome, and basically single handedly is the reason everyone likes the JB4 so much.
 

Zero-Phux-Given

New member
Location
California
That is a very long story with answers that I don't even fully understand yet, but basically the tune has direct control over every single part of the engine, whereas the JB4 only has indirect control over most parts of the engine. For example, APR adjusts the injector duty cycle directly in their tune which allows them to run a much richer AFR and have a higher fueling ceiling in general without maxing out the trims like the JB4 will. Also, APR has directly changed the timing map whereas the JB4 can only indirectly change the timing map by encouraging the ECU to think it's experiencing different conditions than it is. This is only a tiny part of the story.

The biggest advantage of the JB4 is you can adjust things on the fly to suit your car, weather, etc... and can monitor it all quite easily. As you can see in my signature I have both, giving me the best of both worlds. I am not very close to my fueling limit and can run very high boost (at the expense of timing) because of my APR tune, but I have the ability to adjust for my turbo swap and take advantage of e85 because of my JB4.

If you are willing to put a bit of time into tuning with the JB4, and by that I mean a few hours over the course of a week or two, it's really not that hard to work with. The biggest resource we have is George Smooth, who's job at Burger Tuning as far as I can tell is to spend all day every day looking at JB4 logs and telling people what to change to make it better. He's pretty awesome, and basically single handedly is the reason everyone likes the JB4 so much.

What's the benefit with the JB4 on top of the APR Stage I? Doesn't that just mess up the APR tune?

Also, if I can't do the TCU tune and can only do the ECU tune, which would cost me $640.89, what's the high end I could do with my car?

I understand a Stage I would make my car faster than a stock GTI, but what are my limiting factors?
How much does it cost to go further? And what exactly is further beyond a Stage I?
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
What's the benefit with the JB4 on top of the APR Stage I? Doesn't that just mess up the APR tune?

Also, if I can't do the TCU tune and can only do the ECU tune, which would cost me $640.89, what's the high end I could do with my car?

I understand a Stage I would make my car faster than a stock GTI, but what are my limiting factors?
How much does it cost to go further? And what exactly is further beyond a Stage I?

Stage 2 with a downpipe, IS20 turbo upgrade, IS38 turbo upgrade, larger intercooler, golf R injectors. APR stage 1 and 2 are the highest power and fastest for set and forget. Unitronic is the slowest. JB4 map 2 is a little quicker than them. JB4 map 6 can be made to be as quick as the APR and possibly quicker, but it takes lots of tweaking and logging and some e30. You can use the JB4 to go big turbo on its own or stacking it on a stage 1 or 2 flash. Only unitronic makes IS20 flash for fwd, but the JB4 makes more power. Stacked on APR is the most powerful way to go. You can left foot brake without a flash, it just takes some practice. The speed limiter is still there unless you flash though. To me, 120-124 is enough. The flash will give you better fuel delivery for high power or larger turbo options though
 

Zero-Phux-Given

New member
Location
California
Stage 2 with a downpipe, IS20 turbo upgrade, IS38 turbo upgrade, larger intercooler, golf R injectors. APR stage 1 and 2 are the highest power and fastest for set and forget. Unitronic is the slowest. JB4 map 2 is a little quicker than them. JB4 map 6 can be made to be as quick as the APR and possibly quicker, but it takes lots of tweaking and logging and some e30. You can use the JB4 to go big turbo on its own or stacking it on a stage 1 or 2 flash. Only unitronic makes IS20 flash for fwd, but the JB4 makes more power. Stacked on APR is the most powerful way to go. You can left foot brake without a flash, it just takes some practice. The speed limiter is still there unless you flash though. To me, 120-124 is enough. The flash will give you better fuel delivery for high power or larger turbo options though

How much does an IS38 turbo upgrade cost in parts? All I can find is the price for the tune.
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
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MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
How much does an IS38 turbo upgrade cost in parts? All I can find is the price for the tune.

Short answer : a lot

Long answer : (you can get these for less if used/Chinese/do your own wrenching)
Turbo : $1500
Intercooler: $800
Clutch : $1000
Downpipe $500
Tune : $1300 (no IS38 tune per se. This is APR+ JB4)
Labor : $3000

Total : $8100
 

Zero-Phux-Given

New member
Location
California

Made me lol, gotta know how much so I could decide to out money towards more or start with less.
I'll probably just get the Stage I tomorrow.

Short answer : a lot

Long answer : (you can get these for less if used/Chinese/do your own wrenching)
Turbo : $1500
Intercooler: $800
Clutch : $1000
Downpipe $500
Tune : $1300 (no IS38 tune per se. This is APR+ JB4)
Labor : $3000

Total : $8100

Thank you very much, that's a great breakdown. I won't be getting that anytime soon, haha.
 

GTI Jake

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte, NC
If I were you I'd go JB4. The power potential is there for a lot less money, plus if you do an is20 swap you can adjust for that too.

Being a non DSG car is20 (stock gti turbo) is really all the more power you wanna make anyway, and that swap is very affordable vs is38. There's several members here who can help you out, including George Smooth aka JB4 tech support
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
Made me lol, gotta know how much so I could decide to out money towards more or start with less.
I'll probably just get the Stage I tomorrow.



Thank you very much, that's a great breakdown. I won't be getting that anytime soon, haha.

Just the IS20 is a pretty good upgrade and you can find them used for $300 give or take. JB4 can be found used all of the time for under $400. Downpipes can be found used as well, but a decent one is $400 or so. So all in all you can feasibly do an IS20 swap with everything needed for less than the cost of just an IS38. Realistically it will have a better power band for everyday driving as well. A few JB4 only IS20 guys have dynoed there cars and they are in the 300whp/350wtq range
 
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