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Intercooler performance

Scrodee

Ready to race!
Location
CSRA
To better understand the nature of this platform and test my A/C theory I monitored a long freeway drive last night. Road was pretty empty so there's not many variables other than long gently rolling hills; figured it'd be a prime opportunity to spot some trends and get my geek on.
Spent about 150 miles on cruise, set at 74mph (around 2400 RPM).
Ambient temperature was a steady 73 degrees.
Watched oil temp on the cluster readout and the following gauges on my JB4: boost, timing, IAT, and water temperature.

Oil temperature was rock solid at 217F the whole time. Pretty sure this is accurate and the monitor is good because I generally watch this all the time when I'm driving and it changes as I'd expect it to.

The car mostly used timing to adjust for load as the hills rolled, keeping boost fairly steady at 1psi. Every now and again boost would drop as low as 0.7 or as high as 1.3 but generally hovered between 1.0 and 1.1 pounds.
Timing would go as low as 12.5 on the steeper inclines and as high as 21 degrees on the downhills.

Water temps varied from 204F to 208F. Getting higher on the way up a hill as expected because the engine is having to work harder and produces more heat. And dropping quite quickly as soon as the hill crested and we headed back down.

The most interesting thing for me is that IAT followed timing and was more or less unaffected by other things, most notably water temps. I expected the radiator to have some impact, but maybe with constant airflow across the front it's minimal; probably a different story at lower speeds and/or in traffic.
IAT on the inclines (12.5 degrees of timing) would generally get down to about 86 but climbed as high as 96 on the declines (21 degrees of timing). I figure it's air flow (cruise control was modulating the throttle, in retrospect I wish I had watched that as well). Just cause there's a consistent 1psi of boost doesn't mean the air moving at the same speed. Maybe it's exhaust temps causing the turbo to heat the air more?

Last trend of note, I turned the A/C off for a little while (had it running most of the trip). It took about 10 minutes, but IAT dropped about 5-6 degrees across the board. Where IAT was bouncing between 86 and 96 as mentioned above, they changed to 80-91 after about ten minutes with the A/C off. I don't know how much the impact is on full throttle runs and extended aggressive driving but I bet it's significant. I will try and get some logs in similar conditions with the A/C running and with it off.


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Perry01

Ready to race!
Location
Hawaii and Utah
Good analysis Scrodee. I have found that hot water temps have indeed affected IAT's in city driving conditions (stop and go). The same is true regarding driving with the A/C on, espiecially in city driving. Intercoolers benefit from air flowing through their vanes. The cooler the air flowing through it, the more efficient it works. If the A/C condenser is hot, then it will heat the air flowing across the intercooler. If the radiator is hot (210°F water temperature) and your are sitting in traffic, radiant heat will also affect your intercooler performance.

I have found that once heavy throttle is applied, lots of air flows through the charge pipes. This drops IATs closer to ambient. (on an upgraded IC)
 
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Scrodee

Ready to race!
Location
CSRA
Good analysis Scrodee. I have found that hot water temps have indeed affected IAT's in city driving conditions (stop and go). The same is true regarding driving with the A/C on, espiecially in city driving. Intercoolers benefit from air flowing through their vanes. The cooler the air flowing through it, the more efficient it works. If the A/C condenser is hot, then it will heat the air flowing across the intercooler. If the radiator is hot (210°F water temperature) and your are sitting in traffic, radiant heat will also affect your intercooler performance.

I have found that once heavy throttle is applied, lots of air flows through the charge pipes. This drops IATs closer to ambient. (on an upgraded IC)



Thanks!
Of course this is pretty basic knowledge, what I'm interested in is the magnitude of the effects.


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siupo128

Ready to race!
Location
sacramento
Anyone running the Neuspeed FMIC, either the GTI or IS38 larger unit...?


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i am running the neuspeed is38 fmic on freektune. it running about 9-13 f above iat. fittment is good. i just need to trim the plastic square hole a litttle big so the bracket can sit tight. one thing need to be aware is u really need to tighten the hose clamp real tight..because after the install my hose got loose and i have to jack up the car tighten it again. i like it, and it save me few hundreds for installation. i bought it from mapperformance when they had the 10% off.

http://datazap.me/u/siupo128/log-1494805518?log=0&data=6-10-12
 
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kornsined

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Alberta
Did some more logs without my a/c on in similar ambient temps. Once I sit down tonight i'll upload them to datazap and link them here.
 

Perry01

Ready to race!
Location
Hawaii and Utah
i am running the neuspeed is38 fmic on freektune. it running about 9-13 f above iat. fittment is good. i just need to trim the plastic square hole a litttle big so the bracket can sit tight. one thing need to be aware is u really need to tighten the hose clamp real tight..because after the install my hose got loose and i have to jack up the car tighten it again. i like it, and it save me few hundreds for installation. i bought it from mapperformance when they had the 10% off.

http://datazap.me/u/siupo128/log-1494805518?log=0&data=6-10-12

What was ambient temperature during this log? When you started the log, IAT's were 98°F then dropped to 82°F but boost maxed at only 22 PSI and tapered to 14 PSI at 6400 RPM. I'm surprised at the low PSI with the IS38. What tune do you have?

Like I stated earlier in this thread, it's easy to make an intercooler look good in a log. Dial down the boost or start with a cool motor and voila, IAT's very near ambient. Below is a log I did with boost dialed back to 23 PSI Peak tapered to 15 PSI at 6700 RPM. I started the log with a relatively cool motor ( 91°F ) and my IAT's dropped to 80°F. An amazing 2°F above ambient temperature but this is not real world data. That's why I didn't post it or send it to greggles to include in his database.



http://datazap.me/u/perry01/additive?log=0&data=1-6&trim=0&tmin=0.50&tmax=87.85
 

kornsined

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Alberta
Here is the Unitronic log I had from yesterday (that perry01 posted). A/C is on and this was after a few runs and some jb4 logging.
http://www.datazap.me/u/kornsined/may20mk7ris38jb4map6?log=0&data=1-4


Now today's with no a/c on. First runs of the day.
http://www.datazap.me/u/kornsined/may-21-map-6-run-1?log=0&data=1-4


Then after IATs had settled in and about 6-7 WOT pulls. Again no a/c.
http://www.datazap.me/u/kornsined/may21map6run3?log=0&data=1-4


Mods: MK7 Golf R, DSG, Unitronic Intercooler, HPA Catted DP, JB4

Both days had the same ambient temp of 71f or 22 celcius.
 

Scrodee

Ready to race!
Location
CSRA
Cool stuff, thanks!


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greggles

Drag Race Newbie
Location
usa
Car(s)
GTI
Thanks for all that data kornsined! Looks like the unitronic with the AC on the IS38 platform is hurting a bit. Much better with the ac off (but still not as good as the wagner with similar tunes/ambients)

Curious to see how it compares to the IE or APR under similar situations. Keep the data coming everyone, making some good strides here.
 
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Zx2man

Ready to race!
Location
Vancouver, Wa
Gosh dam!!..... im thinking very first mod on this car if you dont live in Alaska or Greenland, is a upgrade IC. Its getting warm here in the PNW..88-90f, which is mild to many. But wow... my car feels straight up stock power in the daytime. Then at night cools down to 60 or so and the pocket rocket comes back. This is my 3rd turbo car, and hot days will usually rob power, but holy shit balls this is the worst. Thank you vw for putting a thin little ic between 2 radiators.
 

Crud_muffin

Ready to race!
Location
US
Car(s)
e-Golf
So here's my first go at logging. This is a short 2 1/2 min. clip toward the end of a 30 min. commute to see what sitting in traffic does in terms of heat soak on a tuned GTI with stock IC. The car is fully warmed up and no frijoles (tl: no beans; quiet drive). A/C was on the duration. This is a GTI S, Non PP, DSG, APR Stage 1 LO 91, APR TCU.

It looks like a steady rise in IAT's while sitting at a light and it doesn't shed those extra 7°F until 30 seconds or so of getting the car moving. Again, just a reflection of light driving with a/c.

So when sending logs, what sensors do we need to report? Everything available? And is there an ideal test range, maybe like 3rd gear from 3k to "redline" for a certain window of time? Thanks!

http://www.datazap.me/u/crudulous/gti-s-gti-ic-dsg-apr-stage-1-lo-apr-tcu-0?log=0&data=1-2-3
 

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TDI Matt

Ready to race!
Location
tucson
Can anyone speak too pressure drop or overall impression of the stock location CTS intercooler? It's up there in my list but I just cant find any good feedback.
 

greggles

Drag Race Newbie
Location
usa
Car(s)
GTI
There is no pressure drop data on the CTS. CTS looks good at least for the cars we have logged on the IS20 platform. (see first page for data).

Crud,
Holy IAT's batman! That data is perfect, thanks for sharing it! You could also log timing to see the ecu pulling back when the temps get that high.
 

BananaSlug

Ready to race!
How much should it cost to get an intercooler installed?
 
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