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brake upgrade for light/rare track use

alper

Ready to race!
I am about to visit a couple of tracks (if weather agrees) and wondering if some brake upgrades are needed in order not to spoil the fun and still have a usable car afterwards. Clubsport (not S) comes with the R/GTI PP brakes which I guess would be ok for 2-3 flat out laps before needing a cool-down, would I be ok in that scenario? I will not be doing a proper race anyway, just free lapping so I can set the cooldown intervals as I see best.

If the stock R/PP brakes are not up even to that job of 2-3 laps then I guess pads and rotors should do it? I am considering the Stoptech Sport Kit (pads, 355 mm rotors and lines I think) which doesn't seem too expensive (around 600 eur). I imagine those should be able to take something like 6-8 hot laps before things become critical? Any experiences?

Then after that I guess I am looking at the full ST-40 (4-pot) BBK from Stoptech which basically only adds the 4 pot calipers but quadruples the cost (~2500) and I honestly don't think I need that for the described use (95% road, 2-3 track days a year).

To my understanding, pads and rotors offer the extra durability (hard, prolonged use) while calipers offer the extra power. Since I am not actually racing I guess I can live with stock braking power, but get yourself carried away as soon as you start to get the feeling of the track (oh just one more lap I promise - it's happened to me in the past) and you can easily cook pads and have rotor issues even without competition against you. That's why I am leaning towards the cheaper upgrade.

Right or wrong?
 

normcaldwell

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Denver, Colorado
You could try running Ferodo DS2500 pads front and rear.
Front FMSI pad shape: D1633.
Rear (for manual cable brake calipers): D1108.

This, combined with higher temp brake fluid (I'm using Motul RBF600), seems to work pretty well for me.
I've done several road course track sessions at my local venue.
Pedal action has been pretty consistent so far.
 
Location
St. Olaf
355 mm rotors to be used along with stock calipers? Never heard of these. ;)


Basically the stock CS/PP brakes are ok for a limited number of laps. I agree
you won't need a BBK if you're just do a couple of trackdays occasionally.
To prevent them from premature wear I'd perform this as a minimum measure:

- removing dust shields
- setting brake assist to weak
- flush brake fluid and use RBF660, RBF600 or similar
- use your brakes with some common sense and perform a full cooling-down lap


Beyond that I'd highly recommend to also swap the pads each trackday and
after, and use some serious stuff instead:

- Pagid RSL/RS29
- PFC 06/08


If you really want a dual-purpose compound (which I would not recommend doing):

- Ferodo DS2500
- Endless MX-72/MX-RS
- OE Clubsport S (sadly still very little experience to be found)


Generally the clamping force depends on the total area of the caliper's piston.
Commonly properly designed BBKs are the same piston area as the stock caliper.
That's why the 4 or 6 pistons are smaller each than the single 57 mm stock one.
The advantages of multi-piston fixed calipers are pedal feel, access to pads and
weight.


;)
 
Last edited:

alper

Ready to race!
355 mm rotors to be used along with stock calipers? Never heard of these. ;)


Basically the stock CS/PP brakes are ok for a limited number of laps. I agree
you won't need a BBK if you're just do a couple of trackdays occasionally.
To prevent them from premature wear I'd perform this as a minimum measure:

- removing dust shields
- setting brake assist to weak
- flush brake fluid and use RBF660, RBF600 or similar
- use your brakes with some common sense and perform a full cooling-down lap


Beyond that I'd highly recommend to also swap the pads each trackday and
after, and use some serious stuff instead:

- Pagid RSL/RS29
- PFC 06/08


If you really want a dual-purpose compound (which I would not recommend doing):

- Ferodo DS2500
- Endless MX-72/MX-RS
- OE Clubsport S (sadly still very little experience to be found)


Generally the clamping force depends on the total area of the caliper's piston.
Commonly properly designed BBKs are the same piston area as the stock caliper.
That's why the 4 or 6 pistons are smaller each than the single 57 mm stock one.
The advantages of multi-piston fixed calipers are pedal feel, access to pads and
weight.


;)


My bad, the Stoptech Sport Kit consists of stock size 340mm rotors and I was referring to those. 355mm are the rotors on the full BBK which is probably out of the question already but I just wanted to list the options.

Pads and fluids was what I had done to my last car (Motul RBF600, EBC Yellowstuff pads) and the difference was noticeable and enough to see me survive a few track days and get back. That car was 230bhp/1200kg though compared to the CS which in current state is more like 350bhp/1400kg.

So probably just pads and fluid again to begin with. I'd go with RBF600 since I had good experience with it and it's still recommended for these cars. I hear excellent stuff for Pagid RS29 but boy they are expensive. I also don't want to run a race pad that feels compromised on the street if not up to temp as that's where most of my driving is (car is also a family driver). For this reason I'd rather go with a lesser/dual compound pad but still an improvement over stock CS/PP pads.

@Breaking badly: why do you say you would not recommend this?

DS2500 are also very well known but I've heard some complaints about them regarding their street performance.

I guess swapping to CS-S rotors will not offer any advantage at the moment but surely it can be an option for when stock rotors need replacement.
 
Location
St. Olaf
To begin with, I would not run RBF600 during Swedish winters due to its elevated viscosity.
Motul RBF660 seems more appropriate, however I'd study datasheets for actual specs first.
Alternatively, swap fluid twice every year and use Moturl DOT5.1 or OE VW during winter.

I agree with your concerns regarding the 350 HP increasing speeds on every straight and
increasing brake challenges.

Don't underestimate ventilation and VCDS/brake assist settings. This is crucial. Even more,
both are dirt cheap measures, so you certainly won't pass on these. VCDS mods are for
free and RS3 air guides are something like 40 € and 30 min of labour, however they perhaps
may save your pads and rotors. Granted, removing the dust shields requires removing the
rotors first but Iswear you it's worth it. ;)

Pagid RS29s are great value, since they last long and they make your rotors last fairly
long. They're even dirt cheap compared to Endless MA45B. However, I intended to name
RS29 as an example mainly. Feel free you search for similar alternatives (Ferodo DS
Uno etc.).

If you heard of complaints on DS2500 driven on street, what would these guys say about
driving a true track compound like RS29 in a colder environment? There is no compound
existing that does meet all purposes perfectly. Pads either last on track or they're quiet on
street.
Never both at the same time. That's why I said swap the pads each time. You also want to
inspect your brakes anyway after duties that hard like tracking, clean them, look for melted
seals and so on. Running one single pad for every duty means you never run a perfect pad,
and, as a consequence, you'll likely never be happy, whether on track nor on daily driving.

;)
 

alper

Ready to race!
To begin with, I would not run RBF600 during Swedish winters due to its elevated viscosity.
Motul RBF660 seems more appropriate, however I'd study datasheets for actual specs first.
Alternatively, swap fluid twice every year and use Moturl DOT5.1 or OE VW during winter.

I agree with your concerns regarding the 350 HP increasing speeds on every straight and
increasing brake challenges.

Don't underestimate ventilation and VCDS/brake assist settings. This is crucial. Even more,
both are dirt cheap measures, so you certainly won't pass on these. VCDS mods are for
free and RS3 air guides are something like 40 € and 30 min of labour, however they perhaps
may save your pads and rotors. Granted, removing the dust shields requires removing the
rotors first but Iswear you it's worth it. ;)

Pagid RS29s are great value, since they last long and they make your rotors last fairly
long. They're even dirt cheap compared to Endless MA45B. However, I intended to name
RS29 as an example mainly. Feel free you search for similar alternatives (Ferodo DS
Uno etc.).

If you heard of complaints on DS2500 driven on street, what would these guys say about
driving a true track compound like RS29 in a colder environment? There is no compound
existing that does meet all purposes perfectly. Pads either last on track or they're quiet on
street.
Never both at the same time. That's why I said swap the pads each time. You also want to
inspect your brakes anyway after duties that hard like tracking, clean them, look for melted
seals and so on. Running one single pad for every duty means you never run a perfect pad,
and, as a consequence, you'll likely never be happy, whether on track nor on daily driving.

;)


I'm lucky enough to be at most southern part of Sweden, so weather is not really any different than North Germany. Maybe a week or two max of snow per year and lowest I've seen is -5 for a couple of days. Last car with RBF600 went through couple of winters without any issues.

What you say about not ever running a perfect pad is the key I think. I don't actually want to bother to run a perfect pad at all times, I can't afford the maintenance time mainly, rather than the cost. If there is a pad that will allow me to worry less on track but still be daily drive-able that's fine, otherwise I'll just keep it stock and adapt my track driving around the stock characteristics. As I said, the car mainly serves as a daily driver and my track driving is just for pushing close to the limits on a safe environment, no race/competition whatsoever so I can definitely live with not the best race pad out there. There was a time that I would bother for every last bit of performance but not any more. A dual compound pad is I think the answer.
 
Location
St. Olaf
Buddy, you certainly know this 'old' saying:

High performance, no noise, cheap - pick two of them, not three.

The 'best', say, the most acceptable compromise between track performance and daily driving currently
available is one of the more expensive choices: Endless MX-72 (or MX-RS if you get hold of them).

However, I'd still perform frequent inspections before and after trackday, along with the above mentioned
'ultra-low-cost measures', say improve ventilation and do the Brake-Assist mod.

;)
 

alper

Ready to race!
Buddy, you certainly know this 'old' saying:

High performance, no noise, cheap - pick two of them, not three.

The 'best', say, the most acceptable compromise between track performance and daily driving currently
available is one of the more expensive choices: Endless MX-72 (or MX-RS if you get hold of them).

However, I'd still perform frequent inspections before and after trackday, along with the above mentioned
'ultra-low-cost measures', say improve ventilation and do the Brake-Assist mod.

;)

Echo on the Brake assist turn off, was doing that on my last VAG car as well. Any links for the vents mod?
 
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