Brake pads on track

breaking badly said:

Don't ix up with fading and boiling fluid. Fading is caused
by overheating pads, which emit gasses when too hot.
Nothing to do with brake fluid. For that reason you can't
combat brake fade with better fluid. You need improved
pads and better ventilation.
It's a good idea to use higher rated fluid to avoid it from
boiling though, which is even more horrible than fading pads.

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Define 'fading'.

The fading I mean (pedal getting longer, breaking point more and more undefinable) ist definitely to be fought by stainless lines and brake fluid. ATE Type 200 (which is the same as the Super Blue Racing except color) is always good enough. Take it and please use stainless lines as well and you will not think you use the same break as before.

And yes, ventilation is a very good idea, but first you got to upgrade the rest. Lines, fluid and pads. Discs as well if the other things are not enough. And then it's a question of speed if you need venilation.

To give an example:
On The Ring you can use the OEM .:R-brakes up to a laptime level of around 9:00 [BtG]. If you want to enter speeds up to 8:30, you got to upgrade lines, fluid, pads, discs. And it works well. If you want to go faster than 8:30 you definititely need a BBK on the long term. And additional ventilation if your aim is to go under 8:00.

So, you see, as long as we don't know which speed the OP is able/willing to go, we can't give serious tips. But what always works (against fading) is the upgrade of lines, fluid and pads.

@Goingherenowfast: If there is only the choice you mentioned above, take the hawks. But everything is better than the YellowStuff.

Ate TYP 200 is marginal on a track driven car. We use it for regular fluid flushes on street driven cars. Anything that see's track duty from schools to open lapping gets at least a Motul RBF600 or 660, AP PRF600 or 660, PFC665 etc. On our BMW race car we are trying some Gulf RF 1000, and it seems pretty consistant after one race weekend of use, better than the PFC stuff. Ultimately if you have a high powered or heavy car you need to run the Castrol SRF, but it is pricey.

Motul RBF 600 ist slightly better than Ate Super Blue/Super 200,
but it's not a huge difference at all:


Ate Super Blue - DOT4 - 536º F (280º C) / 390º F (194º C)

Ate Super 200 - DOT4 - 536º F (280º C) / 390º F (194º C)

Motul RBF 600 - DOT4 - 594º F (312º C) / 402º F (205º C)

Motul RBF 660 - DOT4 - 617º F (325º C) / 400º F (204º C)

(dry and wet boiling points)


I'd say they're all fine as they all have higher boiling points
compared to most (common) DOT4 and DOT5.1 fluids. See
Motuls DOT5.1 as an example, which already is one of the
very best DOT5.1 fluids available and superior to very most
DOT4 fluids:

Motul DOT 5.1 - DOT5.1 - 509º F (265º C) / 365º F (185º C)


Don't get me wrong though. Nothing to say against using
more expensive stuff like SRF, LCF 600+ or RF-650:


Brembo LCF 600+ - DOT4 - 601º F (316º C) / 399º F (204º C)

Castrol SRF - DOT4 - 590º F (310º C) / 518º F (270º C)

Endless RF-650 - DOT4 - 612° F (323° C) / 425° F (218° C)

TheMaOdy66 said:

Define 'fading'.

The fading I mean (pedal getting longer, breaking point more and more undefinable) ist definitely to be fought by stainless lines and brake fluid.

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https://www.alconkits.com/drmassets/Brake-Fade-Solved.pdf

Thanks for the 2 cents guys. So I looked up the custom made Carbotechs and they are EXPENSIVE! Holy hell. Also the HPS+ pads are not available on the Non-PP cars. I'm basically screwed I think. But I contacted Hawk to inquire about future interest in the HP plus pads so we'll see what they say.

Why oh why wasn't there an S PP available when I was looking

Just wanted to provide some feedback for those looking for track pads.

I just got to test the Pagig RS29 endurance pads. Track was NJMP Thunderbolt. Initial bite and feel was great, belt very progressive with pedal pressure. They also seem to warm up really quickly, just one application. This track layout has three hard braking zones that are evenly distributed, so it's not the best test of heat management, but so far so good. No noticeable change in feel/power in a 20 min session at full pace. Bedding them in on the same rotor that the stock were on worked great, we'll see when I go in the other direction.


I used them on the street for about 2 weeks before and the noise was very tolerable so I will probably not bother swapping them out as long as there are upcoming track days. I do a lot of highway driving and have had no issues with them being too cold. The only time they squeal is in stop and go traffic where ACC drags the brake. Otherwise if you brake firmly and windows are up, you cant hear them at all. Although I get some looks, so anyone driving windows down beside me can hear them. Due to the design of the retainer spring, they can rattle in the caliper in really bumpy roads.

Pagid Race Pad Set - U8201 Pad Compounds:U8201-RS29 Yellow
https://www.paragon-products.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=U8201-Pagid

G-loc r12 or r16 makes an amazing pad. Currently running the r12 and could not be happier. temp range from 180f to 1900f with a stupid aount of initial bite even after multiple laps. Be prepared to drop a decent amount of money though, they aint cheap.

makopolo said:

...Pagid RS29 endurance pads.... Initial bite and feel was great, belt very progressive with pedal pressure. They also seem to warm up really quickly, just one application...

I used them on the street for about 2 weeks before and the noise was very tolerable so I will probably not bother swapping them out as long as there are upcoming track days. I do a lot of highway driving and have had no issues with them being too cold. The only time they squeal is in stop and go traffic where ACC drags the brake. Otherwise if you brake firmly and windows are up, you cant hear them at all. Although I get some looks, so anyone driving windows down beside me can hear them. Due to the design of the retainer spring, they can rattle in the caliper in really bumpy roads.

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Agree with everything said. I used the RS29 paired with stainless lines, RBF600, and TTRS air-guides one weekend so far at Summit Point main in 90F+ temps. Wear was low too, and as a matter of fact I'm going to keep them on all summer with their own dedicated set of rotors, then switch back to stock pads/rotors after the season's over. The pad rattle was irritating at first on the street but I don't hear it any more. $$$ well spent IMO.

The pad rattle scared me the first time. I didn't didn't notice it when I did my bed-in and fun test drive. Then my wife took the car our for some errands and calls me to go help her because something in the car is loose. Felt horrible putting my wife at risk and all that.

Luckily the issues is only when hitting potholes and only notice it a couple times a week (and I drive A LOT).

Zacr81 said:

G-loc r12 or r16 makes an amazing pad. Currently running the r12 and could not be happier. temp range from 180f to 1900f with a stupid aount of initial bite even after multiple laps. Be prepared to drop a decent amount of money though, they aint cheap.

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I'm running their R8 in the front which started for a track day and I just left them on. Great for dual purpose, although loud on the street. Be sure to use backing shims with some lube or product to reduce squeal for dual use.

To OP question - stock rear pads were fine with golf R vented rear brakes...

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rex n effect said:

I'm running their R8 in the front which started for a track day and I just left them on. Great for dual purpose, although loud on the street. Be sure to use backing shims with some lube or product to reduce squeal for dual use.

To OP question - stock rear pads were fine with golf R vented rear brakes...

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Yeah the R12 is no good for the street, very loud and actually difficult to drive with some times. Not unsafe, they are just hard to drive smooth.

Zacr81 said:

G-loc r12 or r16 makes an amazing pad. Currently running the r12 and could not be happier. temp range from 180f to 1900f with a stupid aount of initial bite even after multiple laps. Be prepared to drop a decent amount of money though, they aint cheap.

Click to expand...

G-loc pads are amazing. I run R10/R8 on my Miata and they work great. Like you said, lots of initial bite, great temp range, no fade, and good modulation. Problem is they don't make them for stock non-PP calipers

Goingnowherefast said:

G-loc pads are amazing. I run R10/R8 on my Miata and they work great. Like you said, lots of initial bite, great temp range, no fade, and good modulation. Problem is they don't make them for stock non-PP calipers

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That's why I run these. R12 pad for reference.

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Does anyone know if project mu or Endless make pads for the mk7 gti? Every dealer I've found (hard to find!) doesn't have anything listed for the mk7. Specifically looking for the mx72 or bForce pads.

This is a an old thread I know. I run a gti PP and have the Ferodo DS2500 in the front. Honestly best pads i have ever used. I also daily them. They currently don't have a rear option but for the price they are wonderful. Yea they dust up but after a 4 hr track session no fade and great hold.

IMO great pad for the daily driven track star

Lord_Flexington said:

This is a an old thread I know. I run a gti PP and have the Ferodo DS2500 in the front. Honestly best pads i have ever used. I also daily them. They currently don't have a rear option but for the price they are wonderful. Yea they dust up but after a 4 hr track session no fade and great hold.

IMO great pad for the daily driven track star

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That's good to hear, from what I've read those pads are easy to roast at the track. Do you think the 2500 would hold up just as well on the smaller non-PP rotors at the track? Assuming the smaller rotors don't dissipate heat as well and subsequently would cause the pads to get hotter.