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MK7 GTI 6MT VS EVO X

steddy2112

steddy2112

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Belcamp MD
Car(s)
2016 GTI SE
Noize said:
I love studying gearing, and have a gear calculator that I use.

Unless VW changed the ratios in the manual GTI for 2017 (which I hope not), there's an error in your math above. Tire Rack has mistakenly listed the OEM GTI summer tires diameter wrong in their database. The all seasons and every other 225/40/18 are correctly listed at 25.1".

Here's VW's own PDF of the ratios.
http://media.vw.com/doc/1975/2017_v...lf_gti_tech_specs-178108856257d81bda02537.pdf

As you know, gears 1-4 use final drive 1, and gears 5-6 use final drive 2 on both transmissions.

Plugging in those ratios with a 25.1" tire diameter for the GTI, here's what we get:

GTI manual @ 6500rpm
1st: 3.77 @ 40mph
2nd: 2.09 @ 72mph
3rd: 1.47 @ 102mph
4th: 1.09 @ 138mph
5th: 1.09 @ 171mph
6th: .91 @ 205mph
FD1: 3.24
FD2: 2.62

GTI DSG @ 6500rpm
1st: 2.93 @ 35mph
2nd: 1.79 @ 57mph
3rd: 1.13 @ 91mph
4th: .77 @ 133mph
5th: .81 @ 175mph
6th: .64 @ 222mph
FD1: 4.77
FD2: 3.44


And for fun, lets throw a stock 2017 Praetoria 235/35/19 Golf R in the mix.
http://media.vw.com/doc/1342/16639762254eb40c8bd4a5.pdf
Plugging in those ratios with the R's taller 25.5" tire diameter, here's what we get:

Golf R manual @ 6500rpm
1st: 3.36 @ 35mph
2nd: 2.09 @ 56mph
3rd: 1.48 @ 79mph
4th: 1.09 @ 107mph (110mph at 6700rpm)
5th: 1.10 @ 138mph
6th: .91 @ 167mph
FD1: 4.24
FD2: 3.27

Golf R DSG @ 6500rpm
1st: 2.92 @ 36mph
2nd: 1.83 @ 57mph
3rd: 1.31 @ 79mph
4th: .97 @ 107mph
5th: .1.04 @ 139mph
6th: .81 @ 178mph
FD1: 4.77
FD2: 3.44


Analyzing all four, the GTI manual is far and away the least desirable, unless you have a 550+HP GTI. Those gears are way-way too tall for an is20, which is why the manual GTI feels so sluggish stock in comparison to the DSG.

The DSG ratios are way better, but there's a little more gap that I'd like to see from third to fourth. Still, with the DSG upshift speed, there's no wonder why these are quarter mile monsters. My wife's GTI is tuned, but the DSG is stock. I've never had it get stuck on an upshift in turns yet. The extra shift to 60 is completely irrelevant with the DSG, because it shifts so fast, and that's a magazine metric that means little in the real world.

Both GTI final drives are recockulously overtall for the sake of fuel economy. 6th is useless in both for anything but interstate cruising.

Things get interesting when you look at the Golf R. It's like VW grew a brain and took the overtall 6th from the GTI DSG, re-geared it, and put it in the exact place you'd want between third and fourth for optimum spacing. So much better for linear acceleration.

I put the 4th gear speed at 6700 for the manual, because if you were drag racing it, not having that extra upshift and boost dump- re-spool at the end of the track would be really helpful on a stage 2 car. All the stage 2 manual Rs are stuck at 107-110mph for a reason on wy2sl0's drag racing leaderboards. These gear speeds are probably about 8%-10% too short for a manual transmission performance car at 300-400hp.

My money would go to the DSG-R. There is no wonky huge gear drop, and given the lightning fast upshifts, a modified car will scream from a launch till it's de-limited theoretical top speed, provided it has enough horsepower to do so.
Click to expand...

The GTI 6M gears I found were different. Not by much, but that's why my numbers we're a tiny bit off. I have an excel spreadsheet for gearing for my summer tire set up(245/35/18) and my stock tire set up mainly because my last turbo car had a little bit bigger turbo in it so I wanted to find out where I need to avoid stepping on it because high load+low rpm=broken parts.

That car also had tall as fuck gears(35,78,110,145,the moon) and honestly it's fine in a traction limited FWD anyways. I wonder how a Golf R manual box in a GTI would fare...

...anyways I see a lot of people talking about MPG and low RPMs and that fact only holds true if there's almost no load. I think the main reason the manuals get better MPG than the DSGs is because you're more at peak tq where the engine is at it's highest efficiency to move air with the least amount of effort. If all things are equal, flat and level road and going a constant speed, you should get better MPG. That's not how it works though as traffic and hills and such, I consistently get about 3-4 MPG better in my car than in the wife's car.

Long post is long, lol, but back on your point about the GTI gears, with the IS20 you are making NOTHING but really hot air at 6500 RPM. If you look at dynos they are usually making peak hp at 5000-5300 rpm and they just fall on their face so hard past that. The IS20 is almost too small. I thought the stock K04 on my old Cobalt was too small but not like this little guy. But yeah if you can get the traction then by all means the DSG is always going to be better because of shift times and gearing in the GTI's case. Looks like the gearing isn't too far off from manual to DSG in the R.
 
R

Reggie Enchilada

Autocross Newbie
Location
nowhere
Car(s)
yes
Are you OK? You're making counter-arguments to statements that were never made.
Nobody said anything about production cars having or not having ABS, so why even bring that up? On top of that, nobody mentioned anything about forgetting to put the fuse back in, so no point in bringing that up either. That whole part of your reply was just condescending.

You should look into what VW's XDS does and how it functions. It uses the brakes as a psuedo-differential, and can also supplement the VAQ diff on PP cars. Take out the ABS fuse and you may encounter issues with the XDS functioning properly.

On the 15's you can turn the starting vibration reduction down but not off. Should be the same way on PP cars regardless of year.
 
W

wy2sl0

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Ontario
I ran without ABS before the tweak for the VCDS came out. I was one of the first to rip it out on the JB1 :D I made like 50 passes without the ABS fuse.
 
R

Reggie Enchilada

Autocross Newbie
Location
nowhere
Car(s)
yes
wy2sl0 said:
I ran without ABS before the tweak for the VCDS came out. I was one of the first to rip it out on the JB1 :D I made like 50 passes without the ABS fuse.
Click to expand...

Did you notice anything strange/different with it out?

Digilio86 said:
Nah mines off and I'm pp.
Click to expand...

Thought I remembered seeing some 16's in the SVR thread that couldn't fully disable it. Wonder if it's just the 15's then?
 
steddy2112

steddy2112

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Belcamp MD
Car(s)
2016 GTI SE
Reggie Enchilada said:
Are you OK? You're making counter-arguments to statements that were never made.
Nobody said anything about production cars having or not having ABS, so why even bring that up? On top of that, nobody mentioned anything about forgetting to put the fuse back in, so no point in bringing that up either. That whole part of your reply was just condescending.

You should look into what VW's XDS does and how it functions. It uses the brakes as a psuedo-differential, and can also supplement the VAQ diff on PP cars. Take out the ABS fuse and you may encounter issues with the XDS functioning properly.

On the 15's you can turn the starting vibration reduction down but not off. Should be the same way on PP cars regardless of year.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm fine, I know how brake torque vectoring works. It's great to get a car to rotate into turns but in terms of taking off from a dead stop any kind of brake intervention is going to cause inconsistency. Besides, the XDS references the wheel speed sensors for torque management to reduce timing which can cause bogging when there is temporary slip with using something like slicks. It's easier to get consistency down when you take more variables out of the equation. We don't have the option to completely turn off the torque management ourselves so pulling the fuse will take the guesswork the car is trying to do out of the equation.

Boost by gear works a little(a lot) better than retarding timing for drag racing anyways. Take it out of the mix to make a more predictable launch and yield better drag times.
 
N

Noize1

Ready to race!
Location
Nashville
I think XDS is largely junk, and can't begin to replace a mechanical limited slip. Why the Golf R still uses an open front differential and the GTI has an LSD option is beyond me. Some of the crazy disparity of cost between the GTI and the R is due to the fact that it's not cheap to get German cars with German economy required return on investment over here.
 
steddy2112

steddy2112

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Belcamp MD
Car(s)
2016 GTI SE
Noize said:
I think XDS is largely junk, and can't begin to replace a mechanical limited slip. Why the Golf R still uses an open front differential and the GTI has an LSD option is beyond me. Some of the crazy disparity of cost between the GTI and the R is due to the fact that it's not cheap to get German cars with German economy required return on investment over here.
Click to expand...

What's even more of a head scratch is the LSD in the PP GTI's is a Haldex unit.
 
mk7rip

mk7rip

Go Kart Newbie
Location
socal
Car(s)
mk7
wy2sl0 said:
I ran without ABS before the tweak for the VCDS came out. I was one of the first to rip it out on the JB1 :D I made like 50 passes without the ABS fuse.
Click to expand...

What did you run? I went to the track right after I got my JB1 and pulled the fuse as well, ran a 13.6 @ 106 in my 6mt w/ open diff, only downpipe and JB1.
 
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