GTI vs R torque

[radoroc]

Anyone ever wondered why the R has a lower torque figure than horsepower, unlike the gti which has more?

I have been wondering this for a long time, especially since I have been driving a modded tdi with gobs of torque and way more torque than horsepower.

Is it the characteristics of the larger turbo? ECU software?

 

[flipflp]

Turbo size.

The IS20 on the GTI spools faster (low end torque) but doesn't flow as much, so the top end is limited (peak HP).

The IS38 on the R spools slightly slower which is going to soften the torque in lower RPMs, but flows more so the power can extend up top.

On a bigger scale, you're also working with turbo compressor maps and efficiencies.

 

[breaking badly]

Guess you didn't get his question, dude. I did it different at least.

Transmission and clutch is limiting torque, not horsepower.

Any MQB model using either MQ350 or DQ250 is max 380 Nm currently.
Only the R and S3 using the newest DQ381 7-speed DSG have 400 Nm.
You got it right, manual R and S3 still remain at 380 Nm because clutch.

 

[radoroc]

Turbo size.

The IS20 on the GTI spools faster (low end torque) but doesn't flow as much, so the top end is limited (peak HP).

The IS38 on the R spools slightly slower which is going to soften the torque in lower RPMs, but flows more so the power can extend up top.

On a bigger scale, you're also working with turbo compressor maps and efficiencies.

Thanks, I kinda figured that. It bothers me a little bit because I'm so used to a huge influx of low end torque, I will have to get used to it.

 

[flipflp]

Guess you didn't get his question, dude. I did it different at least.

Transmission and clutch is limiting torque, not horsepower.

Any MQB model using either MQ350 or DQ250 is max 380 Nm currently.
Only the R and S3 using the newest DQ381 7-speed DSG have 400 Nm.
You got it right, manual R and S3 still remain at 380 Nm because clutch.

 

[The Fed]

APR dyno'd a stock R. They state 294 HP and 296 torque on their website. I believe I saw them previously report 305 torque. So I don't know if it's because it's a different car, or their marketing department objected.

 

[flipflp]

Thanks, I kinda figured that. It bothers me a little bit because I'm so used to a huge influx of low end torque, I will have to get used to it.

I've learned to love revving the car out, that helps.

I came from a Stage 2 MK6 (VW CC) and it was fairly heavy on low end torque so I understand what you're "missing", but the top end speed makes up for all of it haha

 

[breaking badly]

your pic?

 

[flipflp]

your pic?

Seriously even in your edited post YOU are the one who isn't getting it. His question had nothing to do with limits of the drivetrain. He was literally asking about power output, and differences between the R and GTI. Specifically about why the GTI has more torque (number) than HP (number), and the R has more HP than torque.

OP even agreed with me and you still doubled down. Sometimes I think you are a very well placed troll.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[The Fed]

I believe I saw 400 Nm for the DQ250 specs, which is still only 295 foot pounds. The R is right on the cusp of that, so that suggests VW built in some headroom. APR reported they saw slipping DSG clutches approaching either 360 or 370 (cannot remember which) foot pounds. Probably why their APR Plus tune is only 320 foot pounds. I figure the car can take that for years since APR was able to buy a warranty at that level of power.

 

[flipflp]

Oh boy.

Let's all go off topic and talk about other stuff!

OP wasn't asking about drivetrain limits. At all.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[BlueHen]

Sometimes I think you are a very well placed troll.

Whew, OK good. I wasn't the only one thinking that. Dude always seems to be in a really bad mood. Life is just too short to be like that.

 

[breaking badly]

Seriously even in your edited post YOU are the one who isn't getting it.

There didn't happen any editing at all. Are to trying to insinuate
anything?

His question had nothing to do with limits of the drivetrain. He was literally asking about power output, and differences between the R and GTI. Specifically about why the GTI has more torque (number) than HP (number), and the R has more HP than torque.

Remember this has been his question:

Anyone ever wondered why the R has a lower torque figure than horsepower, unlike the gti which has more?

I still get it as he asked. Why are power numbers higher on the R
compared to the GTI, while torque figures aren't similarly?
The reason remains, that torque is actually limited by the capabilies of
the drivetrain - mainly gearbox and clutch. These items are still very
much the same on 2.0 TDI, GTI and R. So Volkswagen couldn't raise
torque numbers that much. It has nothing to do with turbo size. They
even don't need to raise torque numbers, since GTI and R engines rev
much higher than the Diesel engine, which results in different gearing,
and gearing - along with engine torque/power - makes wheel torque
and power respectively.

OP even agreed with me and you still doubled down. Sometimes I think you are a very well placed troll.

OP probably agreed since your answer was highly misleading to him.
Why are you so offending when I just mentioned that there is the
possibility you may have gotten the OP wrong? Does that really already
drive you up the wall?
Perpetually depreciating forum members as trolls is the typical manner
assholes trying to draw down forum discussions. I've been trying to help
the OP in an objective way. You are only offending, you are the troll.
You don't wan't to help him, you don't want to have a nice discussion.
I'm very much under the impression, your aim is elevating yourself by
belittling other people.
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me if you agree. I wanted to help the OP.
If he appreciates my answer - fine. If he prefers your answer - I certainly
won't bother.

 

[flipflp]

Oh Lord, I won't bother quoting your diluted drivel about how I'm here only to squash down truth and justice! Get over yourself.

My original statement continues to be true as the two cars are tuned, by multiple different tuners, requiring TCU tunes (edit: or an aftermarket clutch, sorry 6MT folks) to increase power holding beyond OEM limits. Until you put a larger IS38 turbo on a GTI, the torque number is higher, and at a lower RPM, where a tuned R will have more HP than torque at it's peaks without the large peak at onset like the IS20 turbo.

So again, the OPs question had to do with how the two different engines and turbos delivered power, and their driving characteristics.

I'll go back to being an asshole troll I suppose. Triggered much BB?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Cruiser]

I've been following the tuning threads, and it appears that even with a tune, the smaller turbo has an advantage in low rpm torque.
The more accomplished tuners explain this, much the same way that flip had responded to the OP