Mods you're wasting money on...

[imthanick_a]

Pretty much. Many people ignore the fact that the factory airbox is a "cold air intake" by design, and seem to trust a couple of knuckleheads in a back room in Pacoima to have more engineering expertise to design an airbox than the VW engineers in Wolfsburg. Kinda mind-boggling.

For many, it's the added sounds and looks that make people go with an aftermarket intake. I'm not sure of anybody who actually believes the marketing wank that an aftermarket intake will add power on its own - I'm sure they are out there, but I haven't run into any of them yet.

 

[golfdave]

For many, it's the added sounds and looks that make people go with an aftermarket intake. I'm not sure of anybody who actually believes the marketing wank that an aftermarket intake will add power on its own - I'm sure they are out there, but I haven't run into any of them yet.

If the OEM intake has a smaller intake opening than the throttle body/flap then an aftermarket one which has an intake opening which is bigger than the throttle body will make a difference as it can draw in more air at any given moment...also it depends on the route of the pipework, obstructions & if the OEM pipework is routed over a hot part of the engine...Aftermarket intakes or custom ones designed with less restrictive pipework & over cooler areas will give the engine more colder & denser air...thus more power...

Simple engineering facts...

PS I will state that some aftermarket intakes are utter rubbish & will make matters worse...but the correct design will improve things...been there done that & have custom built CAI systems for my previous cars....

 

[imthanick_a]

If the OEM intake has a smaller intake opening than the throttle body/flap then an aftermarket one which has an intake opening which is bigger than the throttle body will make a difference as it can draw in more air at any given moment...also it depends on the route of the pipework, obstructions & if the OEM pipework is routed over a hot part of the engine...Aftermarket intakes or custom ones designed with less restrictive pipework & over cooler areas will give the engine more colder & denser air...thus more power...

Simple engineering facts...

PS I will state that some aftermarket intakes are utter rubbish & will make matters worse...but the correct design will improve things...been there done that & have custom built CAI systems for my previous cars....

I understand these facts, I am in fact an engineer for a fluid system components manufacturer (fittings, valves, tubing, pressure regulators, etc). The potential for gain is there, however there are multiple threads, videos, and articles with test data showing that gains are minimal, if any, compared to stock systems with the same running conditions. If you have any data sources to prove otherwise (that doesn't come from a product sale page), I'd appreciate a link. Not being rude, I'm genuinely interested to see the numbers.

Most intakes are still drawing in air from the same spot as the stock intake, same temperature. You can only pull in as much air as the system pushes out (continuity equation of fluid mechanics). Continuity does not apply to compressible fluids however, which is what leads to things like turbo flutter. At some point, the size of the intake does not matter because no more air will fit in there.

The stock intake system is likely engineered undersized so the potential for gains can be had. If you route the intake out of the hood, or into a completely heat-shielded and compartmentalized portion, I could definitely see some theoretical gains.

 

[PLF8593]

Dinan Tuner.

It's cheap and you can get your money back since it's a piggyback... But damn it sucks lol. Race setting (4.0 PSI) commonly sets off EPC

 

[AtlantaDad]

you can get your money back

Good luck with that now. Lol

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[cb1111]

If the OEM intake has a smaller intake opening than the throttle body/flap then an aftermarket one which has an intake opening which is bigger than the throttle body will make a difference as it can draw in more air at any given moment...also it depends on the route of the pipework, obstructions & if the OEM pipework is routed over a hot part of the engine...Aftermarket intakes or custom ones designed with less restrictive pipework & over cooler areas will give the engine more colder & denser air...thus more power...

Simple engineering facts...

PS I will state that some aftermarket intakes are utter rubbish & will make matters worse...but the correct design will improve things...been there done that & have custom built CAI systems for my previous cars....

So if there is this magic intake, why isn't VW making it?

Maybe their research budget is far smaller than some fly-by-night outfit that makes the same intake fit multiple cars?

imthanick_a is right - the only reason to buy this stuff is for moar sound.

While I agree with the basic premise of this thread (that some of us are wasting money on mods), "wasting" is relative.

If I add a CAI because I expect performance gains then I'm wasting money. If I add a CAI because I like the sound and am willing to assume any warranty risks then I'm not wasting money.

I had posted the following on a BMW board back when I had my 335. It applies here too.
_____________________________

Given all the "if I do this, will my warranty blow up in my face" and "why'd I get pulled over for my 20000k headlights and my .5% tintz" posts, I thought that I would give my take on modding.

Don't be a lemming. Just because others are doing a particular mod doesn't mean you do.

Decide what advantages a certain mod have for you. Be honest - is it sound, appearance or performance. Remember that very few mods will actually improve performance or real world handling.

Do your research. What disadvantages does this mod have? Will it affect your warranty? What can some of the unintended consequences be? Has BMW (or another manufacturer) specifically warned against this type of mod? What are the legal implications? Do the cops in your area enforce that particular law? Is it unsafe to you or others?

Is the full cost of the mod (parts, labor, increased operating costs) worth the benefit?

And finally

Are you mentally and monetarily prepared to pay for both the mod and the consequences of the mod? This includes paying for damage that the dealer refuses to fix under warranty because they believe it was caused by the mod.
_____________________________________

If you're interested in the whole thread, then you can find it here

 

[Reggie Enchilada]

The stock intake was designed to meet certain criteria: quiet, inexpensive, and adequate performance for the stock ECU tuning. It meets those criteria quite well and can even keep up with an aftermarket ECU tune. It's a well designed piece for sure.

That being said, there is room for improvement. Adding a higher flowing filter and less restrictive piping will increase the engines efficiency. Any increase to the amount of cool (relatively speaking) outside air getting to the engine will increase its efficiency and will therefore increase the amount of HP/TQ that the engine can send to the wheels. The same logic applies to the intake, charge piping, and I/C.

It's easy to tell if an aftermarket intake is going to increase the amount of cool air going into the engine. As long as it draws in cool air from outside the vehicle and isn't more restrictive than the stock intake, it's good to go.

The filter-on-a-stick options are very obviously a bad idea. They draw in hot air from the engine bay, and the intake pipe is usually made from aluminum which heatsoaks rapidly.

Compare this to units like the Forge CF, APR, Uni, E-Venturi, VWR, etc. that have a cowl or duct to draw in cool outside air, similar to the stock unit, but with a larger duct area.

Upgraded CAI's, IC's, and charge pipes don't "make power", they increase the engine's efficiency which allows the engine to send more power to the wheels.

 

[southpawboston]

Don't be a lemming. Just because others are doing a particular mod doesn't mean you do.

Decide what advantages a certain mod have for you. Be honest - is it sound, appearance or performance. Remember that very few mods will actually improve performance or real world handling.

Do your research. What disadvantages does this mod have? Will it affect your warranty? What can some of the unintended consequences be? Has BMW (or another manufacturer) specifically warned against this type of mod? What are the legal implications? Do the cops in your area enforce that particular law? Is it unsafe to you or others?

Is the full cost of the mod (parts, labor, increased operating costs) worth the benefit?

And finally

Are you mentally and monetarily prepared to pay for both the mod and the consequences of the mod? This includes paying for damage that the dealer refuses to fix under warranty because they believe it was caused by the mod.

I have a very different view of mods than I had 30 years ago, and of most people here. I had my tuning days, I traded them in for family life and other obsessions. Being a middle-aged old fart, I appreciate a compliant suspension, quiet ride, and little luxuries, but still like the feel of a quality German ride and I like to push my cars on winding roads. But a GTI or R won't cut it when you're a one-car family of four with a dog and do a lot of road trips, hence a GSW. I don't care about extracting more hp and torque from an engine that's already the strongest one I've ever owned. I like little things that add value in terms of safety, convenience, practicality and feel, and make me feel like the car is more personalized. I'll be limiting my mods to a bunch of coding adaptations, some euro OEM swap-outs, and some OEM additions here and there, like the door warning lights and footwell lights, jack pads, etc. Sure, I'll spend $50 here and there and I'll happily spend $100 on OBDeleven Pro and a crappy 'droid to interface with it, but my threshold for diminishing return on modding investment is pretty low. I just have too many other things to spend money on than I did 30 years ago.

 

[golfdave]

I understand these facts, I am in fact an engineer for a fluid system components manufacturer (fittings, valves, tubing, pressure regulators, etc). The potential for gain is there,Most intakes are still drawing in air from the same spot as the stock intake, same temperature. You can only pull in as much air as the system pushes out (continuity equation of fluid mechanics). Continuity does not apply to compressible fluids however, which is what leads to things like turbo flutter. At some point, the size of the intake does not matter because no more air will fit in there.

The stock intake system is likely engineered undersized so the potential for gains can be had. If you route the intake out of the hood, or into a completely heat-shielded and compartmentalized portion, I could definitely see some theoretical gains.

Making the engine breath easier is the oldest & simplest mod..& that means both ends...as the exhale part is the exhaust...

It will always mean that the engine can rev faster as it can draw in more air quicker to then increase the revs which then means more air required for every given timeframe......the easier it can suck the air in & the easier it blow it out ...

So if there is this magic intake, why isn't VW making it?

Maybe their research budget is far smaller than some fly-by-night outfit that makes the same intake fit multiple cars?

iIf I add a CAI because I expect performance gains then I'm wasting money. If I add a CAI because I like the sound and am willing to assume any warranty risks then I'm not wasting money.

I had posted the following on a BMW board back when I had my 335. It applies here too.
_
Don't be a lemming. Just because others are doing a particular mod doesn't mean you do.

Decide what advantages a certain mod have for you. Be honest - is it sound, appearance or performance. Remember that very few mods will actually improve performance or real world handling.

And finally

Are you mentally and monetarily prepared to pay for both the mod and the consequences of the mod? This includes paying for damage that the dealer refuses to fix under warranty because they believe it was caused by the mod.
_____________________________________

You are completely forgetting that people like VAG make every component to the lowest cost, the car has to cope will loads of different countries/environments without changing parts, & have the lowest NVH criteria.

My Alloy wheels are the same size as the "wonderfull OEM" stuff, same strength, but 2kg lighter each one....& lets remember what less rotational unsprung weight means...way better handling, less stress on the bearings, less NVH....etc...so why do VAG not do this....COST...

My all metal gearchange is way more precise than the new plastic/rubber OEM stuff...& like the OLD (2001) VAG stuff... why have VAG changed?...COST....& NVH...

Air filters/intakes....current one is ok as limitations is outlet on Turbo...but old VAG I have altered (nat asp engine) as intake was way smaller than throttle body & air intake heat soaked the engine...built bigger CAI that did not heat soak the engine...see pics

The stock intake was designed to meet certain criteria: quiet, inexpensive, and adequate performance for the stock ECU tuning. It meets those criteria quite well and can even keep up with an aftermarket ECU tune. It's a well designed piece for sure.

That being said, there is room for improvement. Adding a higher flowing filter and less restrictive piping will increase the engines efficiency. Any increase to the amount of cool (relatively speaking) outside air getting to the engine will increase its efficiency and will therefore increase the amount of HP/TQ that the engine can send to the wheels. The same logic applies to the intake, charge piping, and I/C.

The filter-on-a-stick options are very obviously a bad idea. They draw in hot air from the engine bay, and the intake pipe is usually made from aluminum which heatsoaks rapidly.

Upgraded CAI's, IC's, and charge pipes don't "make power", they increase the engine's efficiency which allows the engine to send more power to the wheels.

I agree 100% which is what I was stating....& exposed air filters are the WORST thing you can do....


A proper designed CAI however you can't beat...heres one I did years ago:-

 

[cb1111]

I have a very different view of mods than I had 30 years ago, and of most people here. I had my tuning days, I traded them in for family life and other obsessions. Being a middle-aged old fart, I appreciate a compliant suspension, quiet ride, and little luxuries, but still like the feel of a quality German ride and I like to push my cars on winding roads. But a GTI or R won't cut it when you're a one-car family of four with a dog and do a lot of road trips, hence a GSW. I don't care about extracting more hp and torque from an engine that's already the strongest one I've ever owned. I like little things that add value in terms of safety, convenience, practicality and feel, and make me feel like the car is more personalized. I'll be limiting my mods to a bunch of coding adaptations, some euro OEM swap-outs, and some OEM additions here and there, like the door warning lights and footwell lights, jack pads, etc. Sure, I'll spend $50 here and there and I'll happily spend $100 on OBDeleven Pro and a crappy 'droid to interface with it, but my threshold for diminishing return on modding investment is pretty low. I just have too many other things to spend money on than I did 30 years ago.

Yeah. Me too.

Back when I started modding there was no internet. We had to research mods in magazines and we had to go to "speed shops" to discuss benefits. When we got ready to buy, we had to mail a check and wait a couple of weeks for the parts - it actually wasn't that long ago.

That made us think about the mods and seriously consider the consequences.

 

[imthanick_a]

Making the engine breath easier is the oldest & simplest mod..& that means both ends...as the exhale part is the exhaust...

It will always mean that the engine can rev faster as it can draw in more air quicker to then increase the revs which then means more air required for every given timeframe......the easier it can suck the air in & the easier it blow it out ...


:-

Engine revving faster does not create horsepower... Your engine can only "consume" so much air at one time. It's not as simple as "cram as much air in as possible and it will give you the most power". I'd be willing to be you could run open intake straight into the throttle body and open exhaust and you would see no gains from stock air system. I still would like to see proof of a power increase with a CAI



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[golfdave]

Engine revving faster does not create horsepower... I still would like to see proof of a power increase with a CAI



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Allowing the engine to inhale more air & be able to inhale the larger amount when high revs does increase the BHP & NM...

In the pictures the air intake inside is smaller than the throttle body inside...infact way smaller...about 10 to 14mm smaller in diameter...this was the restriction in the system...allow the throttle body to be the restriction means then engine can now inhale way more air than before & do it easier when under high revs...

Ever heard of "restrictors" in race /rally cars??...usually a plate to partially block the air intake system....

In fact on these engine loads of people on the lesser powered ones used the bigger throttle body from my engine & built similar CAIs...as the manifold was similar dims....so more power..

VAG restricted the engine...with the intakes well known on the tuning & rally scene over where they were used in group N sub 1.6lt class...

The other weak point was the "wasted spark" ignition...fitting way better leads & NGK Iridium plugs solved that problem & made the engine smoother & more powerfull at high revs as the spark was stronger ...so a more complete burn...

On some engines fitting a better air filter will make more use of the engine...other engines it won't make a difference...depends on OEM setup...

VWR state that an extra 12Nm is achieved on dyno with their ITG panel filter for my current car..so 5% which is what I would expect & have known about since I was modding cars 23yrs ago...seen dyno results to back it up also...

 

[cb1111]

Making the engine breath easier is the oldest & simplest mod..& that means both ends...as the exhale part is the exhaust...

It will always mean that the engine can rev faster as it can draw in more air quicker to then increase the revs which then means more air required for every given timeframe......the easier it can suck the air in & the easier it blow it out ...



You are completely forgetting that people like VAG make every component to the lowest cost, the car has to cope will loads of different countries/environments without changing parts, & have the lowest NVH criteria.

My Alloy wheels are the same size as the "wonderfull OEM" stuff, same strength, but 2kg lighter each one....& lets remember what less rotational unsprung weight means...way better handling, less stress on the bearings, less NVH....etc...so why do VAG not do this....COST...

My all metal gearchange is way more precise than the new plastic/rubber OEM stuff...& like the OLD (2001) VAG stuff... why have VAG changed?...COST....& NVH...

Air filters/intakes....current one is ok as limitations is outlet on Turbo...but old VAG I have altered (nat asp engine) as intake was way smaller than throttle body & air intake heat soaked the engine...built bigger CAI that did not heat soak the engine...see pics



I agree 100% which is what I was stating....& exposed air filters are the WORST thing you can do....


A proper designed CAI however you can't beat...heres one I did years ago:-

Reggie got it right. The manufacturer needs to consider NVH, economy, safety etc. but they generally get the intakes pretty well down.

Years ago, when manufacturers started hanging on all sorts of emission control devices that sucked up any power the engines may have had.

Back then, removing the add-ons made sense (at least from a performance and economy standpoint) but those days are long gone. While you might be able to design an intake that can increase power in minute amounts, there will be a downside.

Which brings me to your photos. Those plastic covers do several things - they control airflow, make things look neater and - more importantly - is part of the pedestrian safety standards. Taking the cover off and adding all sorts of pointy and sharp bits doesn't help that.

these are all parts of those unexpected consequences that one needs to consider when modding.

The manufacturer does everything for a reason. You need to ask yourself why.

Are those lighter wheels just as strong as the OE wheels? Will a different intake or exhaust meet noise laws etc.

 

[imthanick_a]

Allowing the engine to inhale more air & be able to inhale the larger amount when high revs does increase the BHP & NM...

In the pictures the air intake inside is smaller than the throttle body inside...infact way smaller...about 10 to 14mm smaller in diameter...this was the restriction in the system...allow the throttle body to be the restriction means then engine can now inhale way more air than before & do it easier when under high revs...

Ever heard of "restrictors" in race /rally cars??...usually a plate to partially block the air intake system....

In fact on these engine loads of people on the lesser powered ones used the bigger throttle body from my engine & built similar CAIs...as the manifold was similar dims....so more power..

VAG restricted the engine...with the intakes well known on the tuning & rally scene over where they were used in group N sub 1.6lt class...

The other weak point was the "wasted spark" ignition...fitting way better leads & NGK Iridium plugs solved that problem & made the engine smoother & more powerfull at high revs as the spark was stronger ...so a more complete burn...

On some engines fitting a better air filter will make more use of the engine...other engines it won't make a difference...depends on OEM setup...

VWR state that an extra 12Nm is achieved on dyno with their ITG panel filter for my current car..so 5% which is what I would expect & have known about since I was modding cars 23yrs ago...seen dyno results to back it up also...

Still lacking data to back this up. I've been searching for data for a while (again, that is not on a marketing page) and have found none. In many tests on this forum, as well as elsewhere online, users have found minimal increase in power, maybe 1 or 2 hp, from an aftermarket intake. Dyno runs to prove it.

Example, mishimoto intake. Well respected company in the tuner world. They say "Max gain of 11 hp!!!" But when you see the curves, the graph is just shifted slightly over so they measure the difference at that point in the power band. The small portion where gains are shown is in the power band for roughly 200 rpms. The rest of the curve is pretty much right on par with the stock intake. It's all marketing and clever advertising to make people think it's doing something. Fact of the matter is, unless you modify fueling and timing, shoving more air in will not do a thing. There are many other graphs that show similar trends



Intakes are a supporting mod, not a power mod
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[golfdave]

Which brings me to your photos. Those plastic covers do several things - they control airflow, make things look neater and - more importantly - is part of the pedestrian safety standards. Taking the cover off and adding all sorts of pointy and sharp bits doesn't help that.

these are all parts of those unexpected consequences that one needs to consider when modding.

The manufacturer does everything for a reason. You need to ask yourself why.

Are those lighter wheels just as strong as the OE wheels? Will a different intake or exhaust meet noise laws etc.

That car was made in 2001 pedestrian safety laws as they are now did not apply then..the CAI & ignition leads/spark plugs etc also improved the exhaust test emission...the car when 14yrs old was emitting LESS than my new 3yr old Golf on the same test gear & same top grade fuel..also I ran a big twin outlet Remus exhaust..way more free flowing than OEM..& STILL met the TUV standards etc...& better built than OEM as stainless...

Taking the cover off also stopped the long term problems that these engines had with heat soak affecting the ignition lead etc..

I suppose you have never heard of or had to do a total re-wire of the ignition coil pack wiring for a 1.8T VW GTI MK4 or similar??....heat soak from plastic cover & wiring on top of alloy cam-carrier...VAG making a huge mistake & ballsing up...

I did state that my new alloys are STRONGER than the OEM ones & made to the same high & higher standards than the OEM ones...they are made for rally & race & used by top end sports car manufactures including VWR...& made by one of the top companies for this (Rimstock)

I do my research before I mod...I DO NOT lower my standards..& OEM is NOT always the best...plenty of aftermarket stuff exceeding OEM & still meeting the relevant standards..just ask the German tuners whose stuff HAS to meet the same TUV approval as the OEM....

The reason VAG etc do things for a reason in mainly COST...like why have they removed the isofix covers, the wing mirror screw cover, the under seat drawers...why now remove them??...COST...that's the number one reason....make as much profit as possible...