Newb question: Will manual transmission limit power mods?

[Guisslapp]

New member here and planning on getting the gen7 R to replace my RX-8 (RIP). Was planning on getting the manual transmission, but was curious if this choice would limit my power mod options later. For example, would there be any issues with later doing an APR stage 1 or 2 with manual transmission? TIA

 

[TheSwede]

Welcome to the forum!

In my opinion, it's the opposite. It was a contributing factor to why I chosen manual transmission. If I will go for some tuning the DSG doesn’t set the limit since I have manual.

Have had GTI 6 DSG with tuning without problems, however the R:s potential is on another level……

/Peter

 

[GTA5]

You'll definitely need a new clutch. For the DSG probably not, it supports up to 400+hp i believe. DSG has proven strong on the mk6, hell even mk5.

 

[joema2]

....Was planning on getting the manual transmission, but was curious if this choice would limit my power mod options later. For example, would there be any issues with later doing an APR stage 1 or 2 with manual transmission? TIA

Good question but nobody knows at this point. Traditionally you'd think a manual transmission is simpler, easier to replace/upgrade the clutch, hence a better choice for power mods.

However on the Mk 6 GTI, the clutch was quite weak and many people had problems even at stage 1. By contrast the Mk 6 DSG had more headroom and fewer people had problems at stage 1 and 2.

With the Mk 6, a manual transmission was a fairly low cost component (relative to DSG) that could be used or modified for various models. By contrast DSG was a higher cost component with much more engineering and testing required to certify it. I speculate the Mk 6 DSG was therefore overbuilt to enable use across more platforms without redesign. This may have contributed to its durability at stage 1 and 2 power levels.

None of this was known in 2010 when the Mk 6 was introduced, it had to be deduced over time. We are now at that same point with the Mk 7 GTI and R -- nobody really knows.

 

[Tk_mkv1]

clutch is pretty much all you need to worry about in terms of "limiting" power with manual, some it happens with stage 1, some stage 2. but i believe the mk7 r will be ko4 turbo(which mk6 r has) which spools less quicker than the ko3 in the mk6 gti, not sure if its the same with mk7, so that can basically last the clutch a little longer. but were not exactly sure, from what i read the mk5 clutches were strong on tunes compared to mk6's, maybe vw's put stronger clutches on the mk7s compared to 6, who knows.

 

[Guisslapp]

Thanks for all the feedback! I guess given the fact that I have a preference for a clutch pedal, I should stick with selecting the manual transmission but should be prepared for the possibility that I might need to upgrade the clutch.

 

[TAZZ1]

The general conception is that a manual transmission should be more mod- friendly as it will bear more torque than the DSG. This was my understanding as well. However there has been reports of slipping clutches on many manual Rs in the US as early as stage 1 whereas people this side of the pond are running BT setups on stock DSG without any slip personally I've yet to see any stg2+ R with a slipping DSG (touch on wood )
That said, this might be a US specific issue, or a MK6 R specific one...
Go with what you prefer in terms of driving, if your clutch slips then you can always upgrade it.

 

[TAZZ1]

The general conception is that a manual transmission should be more mod- friendly as it will bear more torque than the DSG. This was my understanding as well. However there has been reports of slipping clutches on many manual Rs in the US as early as stage 1 whereas people this side of the pond are running BT setups on stock DSG without any slip personally I've yet to see any stg2+ R with a slipping DSG (touch on wood )
That said, this might be a US specific issue, or a MK6 R specific one...
Go with what you prefer as in terms of driving, if your clutch slips then you can always upgrade .

 

[joema2]

The general conception is that a manual transmission should be more mod- friendly as it will bear more torque than the DSG. ...whereas people this side of the pond are running BT setups on stock DSG without any slip...

As you said, that is the general conception but it was definitely proven wrong on the Mk 6. Many manual transmission Mk 6 GTIs had clutch problems at stage 1, including mine. I seriously doubt *anyone* could use the stock clutch long term at stage 2. By contrast it was rare to hear of a DSG problem even at stage 2.

The problem with upgrading clutches is the stock unit uses a dual-mass flywheel. This provides damping and noise isolation from the transmission. Almost no aftermarket clutch uses a dual-mass flywheel.

There are two reasons: (1) It must be designed for a fairly narrow window of power delivery and vibrational damping (think of a mechanical vibration filter) and aftermarket manufacturers don't know what you'll be using it in. (2) At power levels outside the design parameters, dual-mass flywheels are prone to disintegration, which will cause lots of damage. Clutch manufacturers typically take the lowest risk, lowest liability approach and use a single mass flywheel.

The problem is aftermarket clutches and single-mass flywheels (while more robust) typically allow a lot more gear whine and transmission noise into the cabin. At idle in neutral with clutch out (like at a stop light), they often have a helicopter-like sound. The amount varies from car to car and clutch to clutch. I have a South Bend Stage 2 "Daily" clutch in my Mk 6 GTI, and it is significantly louder than stock. To me it's not objectionable but many people would find it so. There is pronounced gear whine on off throttle, in-gear deceleration.

Note this was on the Mk 6. On the Mk 7, we don't really know if durability and power handling of DSG vs manual transmission will be like the Mk 6 or different.

 

[GTITX1]

I would look at it this way. Lets say you do a DSG flush every 30-40lk miles. Thats going to amount to over $1k over 100,000 miles.

So if you like manual, go with the manual. Sure you may have to replace the clutch with a stronger one at some point, but maintenance wise, it will be a wash with the DSG, and likely long term far less issues / fixing costs vs the DSG

*note, I am a DSG driver

 

[Liland]

I would look at it this way. Lets say you do a DSG flush every 30-40lk miles. Thats going to amount to over $1k over 100,000 miles.

So if you like manual, go with the manual. Sure you may have to replace the clutch with a stronger one at some point, but maintenance wise, it will be a wash with the DSG, and likely long term far less issues / fixing costs vs the DSG

*note, I am a DSG driver

I see no reason to flush the DSG, this version i believe has dry cluches, so only gears are being lubricated by the oil in the gearbox. Only nessesary to change the oil every 3-5 year or so, just like a manual.

But for tuning i think a manual would be better, the DSG is programmed to work with the stock powerband of the engine. When tuning the engine you change that and the DSG changes gears at the "wrong" (not optimal rpm) time and gets less efficent.

It is easier to put a uprated clutch on a manual than living with a DSG changing gears at the wrong time.

Just my tougths on the topic.

Liland

 

[GTITX1]

I see no reason to flush the DSG, this version i believe has dry cluches, so only gears are being lubricated by the oil in the gearbox. Only nessesary to change the oil every 3-5 year or so, just like a manual.

But for tuning i think a manual would be better, the DSG is programmed to work with the stock powerband of the engine. When tuning the engine you change that and the DSG changes gears at the "wrong" (not optimal rpm) time and gets less efficent.

It is easier to put a uprated clutch on a manual than living with a DSG changing gears at the wrong time.

Just my tougths on the topic.

Liland

Have any info on this? I have not heard that the DSG will be fundamentally different in the 2015's

 

[Liland]

Im not sure what you mean now? I dont think the 2015 cars will be differrent from the 2012 cars?

 

[GTITX1]

Im not sure what you mean now? I dont think the 2015 cars will be differrent from the 2012 cars?

Oh, if you are talking about the DSG that is in the MK6 as well, then absolutely a fluid flush must be done every 40k, I recall Arin at APR recommending 30k for tuned cars.

 

[Liland]

Oh, if you are talking about the DSG that is in the MK6 as well, then absolutely a fluid flush must be done every 40k, I recall Arin at APR recommending 30k for tuned cars.

No i mean the MK7 We got them in 2012